OrionW wrote:
Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
Endgame wrote:
Anthony Barnstable wrote:
Allen John wrote:
Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The problem you are going to see removing bonus from the second puck is asking Rangers and Monks to accept a loss of 30+ damage per turn.
That doesn't seem like something they will be willing to take lightly
At least with Rangers, I've come around to thinking the problem is that it's too easy to hit, not that the hits do too much damage. The swings are supposed to be erratic, but with the +hit numbers we can reach, it's possible to reach a situation where you almost have to try to miss.
I'd argue that the Ranger double-slide needs some sort of penalty to hit, but I have no idea what could possibly balance it across multiple difficulties.
Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Ok, serious question here.
How does discussing hypothetical damage outputs on classes where powers aren't defined and class cards are about to be re-done actually help anything?
Why does damage output of one class vs. another matter at all? If you want to be the best damage dealer there is, play Monk (or soon, Wizard). It is a team game. If I'm playing Paladin, I know that my guarding the wizards often means we don't get attacked, leaving them to channel HP into spells.
If we kill the monster in 1 or 2 rounds, we all participated. Are there bragging rights in some parties that we just don't have in mine? That seems kind of annoying honestly.
If someone is overgeared for their difficulty level and doesn't tone it down, that would take a LOT of the fun out of it for me.
I guess people (this is not aimed at any one person) just like the debate?
Anyhow /rant
Maybe it's different at Epic level, but in my experience I can't recall the last time any of us sliders even cared what the casters were casting, let alone how much damage they were doing. They could be off playing canasta with the DM for all we care.
“Apply STR/2 bonus to hit to each slider, apply STR bonus to damage to each slider”
Scales perfectly as tokens do.
Harder to calculate in the dungeon though.
The following suggestion changes nothing with the core rules, but just adjusts the monk. Perhaps it doesn’t go far enough, but it’s also less disruptive.
2nd ed DnD has a penalty for using 2 weapons. Maybe Adapt it to TD?
For monk, this is pretty easy to do without disrupting the new player experience.
2 weapon style - -2 to hit for sliding 2 pucks
Change base monk str to 9, or even 7.
Add rule: fists of steel. Monk gains +4 hit and +2 damage when using empty pucks.
Eventually it makes sense to swap from fists to weapons, but it would take a serious chunk out of monk base +hit (it’s -5 hit / -3 damage from where we are now)
This moves the BIS monk build in my phone from +23 hit to +18, which may have a real impact on damage due to misses.
The problem with Monks is DAMAGE caused by 2 attacks, not the likelyhood of hitting.
If the damage is not addressed nothing will change and every new +STR or +melee damage token will make the damage gap even wider.
Changing their chance to hit doesn't address the damage problem
I don't really follow here. If you don't hit you don't do damage. If you have to add +hit back to the build you are sacrificing damage.
Also TD can also address melee damage by making 19 and 20 harder to hit on the slider board. In VTD this does not work, but if VTD keeps being a thing I would expect them to move to a more sophisticated client that might allow for more than a 1d10 roll to see if you hit.
Thank you Wade for throwing in logic there, I am sorry no one is paying attention.
First, it is interesting that you aren't paying attention to what the Mages are doing as they usually kill things before sliders even get a chance to slide. Their damage output is absoutely incredable.
Second, each and every character is unique. Each character does what each character does. I think it is rather funny that you are attacking two weapon characters as if they are somehow broken. I play with a Barbarian that does plus 28 attack and plus 70 damage...each character type does something unique and has their fighting style. Are you going to make the bard do a lot more damage to catch up to the damage dealing classes? Or the Paladin? Rangers AC is usually 10 or even 15 points lower than the Fighters because they don't have access to the top armors. The Ranger's relic is also for ranged combat so they can't even max themselves out for the two weapon combat. There are plenty of negatives to each class to go along with the positives.
Each class has a role and the type of play that maximises them.
Fighters good attacks good armor no negatives really, just good at combat and defense.
Barbarians good at two weapon attacks usuly higher damage but lower AC.
Rangers good at either ranged or two handed attacks but lower AC
Monks good with their two fists but harder to get AC
Cleric good at healing but not as good as attacking
Wizards broken amount of damage with spells but low AC and HP
Paladin good at guarding, high AC and secondary attacking and healing but harder to get great damage
Druids another good at everything class if done right. Good at healing, spell slinging, attacking. Not really many negatives except perhaps AC
Bards good at....support but hard to get AC and damage
Rogue good at...indivudual attacks, and support. but basic attacks can lag behind damage classes and hard to get good AC
Third, sliding with two hands is actually more difficult than sliding with one hand. I will completely agree that a tokened out Monk has the potential to deal the most damage. The key word is potential. Slding the two pucks back to back with one hand before the second puck stops is very difficult. As a combat GM it is rare even the most experienced monks hit well. Ranger is a little less difficult but Rangers don't seem to hit nearly as hard as you seem to think that they do. And again, they don't get very good armor as the trade off for the two weapon attacks.
Finally, as a combat GM I can tell you that I see by far the most damage come from the mages, followed by the monk and barbarian.
Power creap is real as clearly each class is capable of doing far more damage than they were even 6 years ago. Each class is unique and you have to set up the character to do what it does best. No class is truely better or worse, only different. Play the class you are suited to and you will do well. If you have the ability to slide 2 pucks really well, play the Ranger or Monk. Stop looking at it as one class is better because of theoretical damage disparities, than another because that is simply incorrect.
