Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #217

Adam Guay wrote:

Daniel Mickey wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: I don't really follow here. If you don't hit you don't do damage. If you have to add +hit back to the build you are sacrificing damage.

Also TD can also address melee damage by making 19 and 20 harder to hit on the slider board. In VTD this does not work, but if VTD keeps being a thing I would expect them to move to a more sophisticated client that might allow for more than a 1d10 roll to see if you hit.


lowering to hit numbers while not addressing the core problem of 2 pucks dealing 2x damage does not resolve the core problem of dual puck classes. That being the damage divide between 1 puck and 2 puck classes caused by 2 puck classes having the ability to double down on all damage boosts that are created at a 2x level over single puck classes.

If you lower hit so that they hit less often you do lower damage today but it's a short term bandaid in a game where power creep is GUARANTEED on a year by year basis.

No matter what you do to fix it today any new tokens that are created will continue to fuel the damage gap between the classes and any penalties applied to hit today will be eventually eroded away with power creep until we are back at the same issue, just with a much larger gap between the classes.

The ONLY way to resolve the issue is to remove the design that allows for the gap to occur. Any other solutions are a stop gap measure at best.


Are you suggesting that we remove the ability to slide 2 pucks all together?

To me, that is part of what makes Monk & Ranger unique. I was under the impression that they sacrifice the ability to wear certain gear to be able to bolster their combat stats, making it easier for the monster to hit them and forcing them to choose between CON & STR/DEX.

If we are going to look at ways to reduce the Monk & Ranger's damage, we should be reviewing every other class at the same time so we can organize the classes in the desired order of damage output. I think too much is missed or forgotten when we try and balance things over multiple years and I expect that it would only get more heated than the Legendary Class Tokens did this year.

Additionally for those who don't wish to remove the Second Puck, I am curious how should we be quantifying the "Challenge" of sliding a second puck? I have been playing since 2012 and I still sometimes have issues with getting the second monk puck slid gracefully before the first puck has stopped. I admit I miss some slides simply because I slide too hard and slide off the board or bounce of another token and hit the side, or even dont slide hard enough and dont make it to the part of the board that counts.


2 pucks in knee hamd ....back to back slid at one time.


Right, Monk requires you to slide both using the same hand one at a time, back to back, but the second is required to start sliding before the first stops moving. While rangers are to slide both pucks, one in each hand at the same time.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #218

Daniel Mickey wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Daniel Mickey wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: I don't really follow here. If you don't hit you don't do damage. If you have to add +hit back to the build you are sacrificing damage.

Also TD can also address melee damage by making 19 and 20 harder to hit on the slider board. In VTD this does not work, but if VTD keeps being a thing I would expect them to move to a more sophisticated client that might allow for more than a 1d10 roll to see if you hit.


lowering to hit numbers while not addressing the core problem of 2 pucks dealing 2x damage does not resolve the core problem of dual puck classes. That being the damage divide between 1 puck and 2 puck classes caused by 2 puck classes having the ability to double down on all damage boosts that are created at a 2x level over single puck classes.

If you lower hit so that they hit less often you do lower damage today but it's a short term bandaid in a game where power creep is GUARANTEED on a year by year basis.

No matter what you do to fix it today any new tokens that are created will continue to fuel the damage gap between the classes and any penalties applied to hit today will be eventually eroded away with power creep until we are back at the same issue, just with a much larger gap between the classes.

The ONLY way to resolve the issue is to remove the design that allows for the gap to occur. Any other solutions are a stop gap measure at best.


Are you suggesting that we remove the ability to slide 2 pucks all together?

To me, that is part of what makes Monk & Ranger unique. I was under the impression that they sacrifice the ability to wear certain gear to be able to bolster their combat stats, making it easier for the monster to hit them and forcing them to choose between CON & STR/DEX.

If we are going to look at ways to reduce the Monk & Ranger's damage, we should be reviewing every other class at the same time so we can organize the classes in the desired order of damage output. I think too much is missed or forgotten when we try and balance things over multiple years and I expect that it would only get more heated than the Legendary Class Tokens did this year.

Additionally for those who don't wish to remove the Second Puck, I am curious how should we be quantifying the "Challenge" of sliding a second puck? I have been playing since 2012 and I still sometimes have issues with getting the second monk puck slid gracefully before the first puck has stopped. I admit I miss some slides simply because I slide too hard and slide off the board or bounce of another token and hit the side, or even dont slide hard enough and dont make it to the part of the board that counts.


2 pucks in knee hamd ....back to back slid at one time.


Right, Monk requires you to slide both using the same hand one at a time, back to back, but the second is required to start sliding before the first stops moving. While rangers are to slide both pucks, one in each hand at the same time.

which bnb is why I suggest both back to back at the ed same time....less control and most likely one far and one short...hard to kand both kn a smaller target.
Fall down......Go boom!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #219

Daniel Mickey wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: I don't really follow here. If you don't hit you don't do damage. If you have to add +hit back to the build you are sacrificing damage.

Also TD can also address melee damage by making 19 and 20 harder to hit on the slider board. In VTD this does not work, but if VTD keeps being a thing I would expect them to move to a more sophisticated client that might allow for more than a 1d10 roll to see if you hit.


lowering to hit numbers while not addressing the core problem of 2 pucks dealing 2x damage does not resolve the core problem of dual puck classes. That being the damage divide between 1 puck and 2 puck classes caused by 2 puck classes having the ability to double down on all damage boosts that are created at a 2x level over single puck classes.

If you lower hit so that they hit less often you do lower damage today but it's a short term bandaid in a game where power creep is GUARANTEED on a year by year basis.

No matter what you do to fix it today any new tokens that are created will continue to fuel the damage gap between the classes and any penalties applied to hit today will be eventually eroded away with power creep until we are back at the same issue, just with a much larger gap between the classes.

The ONLY way to resolve the issue is to remove the design that allows for the gap to occur. Any other solutions are a stop gap measure at best.


Are you suggesting that we remove the ability to slide 2 pucks all together?

To me, that is part of what makes Monk & Ranger unique. I was under the impression that they sacrifice the ability to wear certain gear to be able to bolster their combat stats, making it easier for the monster to hit them and forcing them to choose between CON & STR/DEX.

If we are going to look at ways to reduce the Monk & Ranger's damage, we should be reviewing every other class at the same time so we can organize the classes in the desired order of damage output. I think too much is missed or forgotten when we try and balance things over multiple years and I expect that it would only get more heated than the Legendary Class Tokens did this year.

Additionally for those who don't wish to remove the Second Puck, I am curious how should we be quantifying the "Challenge" of sliding a second puck? I have been playing since 2012 and I still sometimes have issues with getting the second monk puck slid gracefully before the first puck has stopped. I admit I miss some slides simply because I slide too hard and slide off the board or bounce of another token and hit the side, or even dont slide hard enough and dont make it to the part of the board that counts.


Nope. I am not advocating the removal of the two pucks. The intrensic value in 2 pucks is twice the chance to hit.

What I am advocating be fixed is the damage gap caused by all the tokens that give 1x boost to 1 puck and 2x boost to 2 puck.

The cleanest solution would be to only give +damage to the better slide of the Ranger/Monk dual slide and give only weapon damage to the weaker slide. That way if one puck hits a critical and the other does not you always gain the higher damage.

There have been some suggestions to give Monk's Ki as a resource that would allow both pucks to deal damage x slides per game as well as trigger other of their class abilities to give them interesting gameplay decisions.

The idea isn't to break what makes the monk and ranger unique, it's to bring their bonuses back in line with all other classes in the game. To no longer allow them to double dip in damage bonuses outside of a few specific times per game based on class design.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #220

Daniel Mickey wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: I don't really follow here. If you don't hit you don't do damage. If you have to add +hit back to the build you are sacrificing damage.

Also TD can also address melee damage by making 19 and 20 harder to hit on the slider board. In VTD this does not work, but if VTD keeps being a thing I would expect them to move to a more sophisticated client that might allow for more than a 1d10 roll to see if you hit.


lowering to hit numbers while not addressing the core problem of 2 pucks dealing 2x damage does not resolve the core problem of dual puck classes. That being the damage divide between 1 puck and 2 puck classes caused by 2 puck classes having the ability to double down on all damage boosts that are created at a 2x level over single puck classes.

If you lower hit so that they hit less often you do lower damage today but it's a short term bandaid in a game where power creep is GUARANTEED on a year by year basis.

No matter what you do to fix it today any new tokens that are created will continue to fuel the damage gap between the classes and any penalties applied to hit today will be eventually eroded away with power creep until we are back at the same issue, just with a much larger gap between the classes.

The ONLY way to resolve the issue is to remove the design that allows for the gap to occur. Any other solutions are a stop gap measure at best.


Are you suggesting that we remove the ability to slide 2 pucks all together?

To me, that is part of what makes Monk & Ranger unique. I was under the impression that they sacrifice the ability to wear certain gear to be able to bolster their combat stats, making it easier for the monster to hit them and forcing them to choose between CON & STR/DEX.

If we are going to look at ways to reduce the Monk & Ranger's damage, we should be reviewing every other class at the same time so we can organize the classes in the desired order of damage output. I think too much is missed or forgotten when we try and balance things over multiple years and I expect that it would only get more heated than the Legendary Class Tokens did this year.

Additionally for those who don't wish to remove the Second Puck, I am curious how should we be quantifying the "Challenge" of sliding a second puck? I have been playing since 2012 and I still sometimes have issues with getting the second monk puck slid gracefully before the first puck has stopped. I admit I miss some slides simply because I slide too hard and slide off the board or bounce of another token and hit the side, or even dont slide hard enough and dont make it to the part of the board that counts.

Hey Daniel, you make a lot of good points.

I created a thread earlier in the Monk area discussing some ideas regarding adjusting dual sliding classes if TPTB decide it appropriate:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=566&id=251707

I don't know how much of the token development process you have followed and other feedback posts you have read, but there was a decent about of pushback for keeping monks and rangers off of melee damage boosters. Basically, the reason being there's too much of a gap between their potential damage output of dual sliders and other classes. Monks/ rangers were no longer allowed to have nice things.

Back when the gap was lower, I tried arguing that dual sliding (especially Monk) is harder and makes up for some of the difference. It doesn't seem to resonate and the demands to keep the monk/ranger from having nice things continue. VTD has only exacerbated the problem.

I'd really like to see a design change that addresses the gap so these arguments go away. If not only for game balance, but also for attitude towards those that play monk/ranger in the community and when discussing token development. I'd like for monks to get nice things in future tokens without hearing a resounding "no".

Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing your feedback for some of the discussions in that thread.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Philip Goodman.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #221

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The cleanest solution would be to only give +damage to the better slide of the Ranger/Monk dual slide and give only weapon damage to the weaker slide. That way if one puck hits a critical and the other does not you always gain the higher damage.

I wouldn't hate this.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #222

This is my first time participating in the token development process, when do we get to know the recipes for the transmutes?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #223

Acid Pezz wrote: This is my first time participating in the token development process, when do we get to know the recipes for the transmutes?


Normally that picks up shortly after design, but I imagine TD HQ is full throttle on putting on a show this weekend, so I'd not expect anything until mid next week at the earliest.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #224

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Acid Pezz wrote: This is my first time participating in the token development process, when do we get to know the recipes for the transmutes?


Normally that picks up shortly after design, but I imagine TD HQ is full throttle on putting on a show this weekend, so I'd not expect anything until mid next week at the earliest.


TY!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #225

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Allen John wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The problem you are going to see removing bonus from the second puck is asking Rangers and Monks to accept a loss of 30+ damage per turn.

That doesn't seem like something they will be willing to take lightly


At least with Rangers, I've come around to thinking the problem is that it's too easy to hit, not that the hits do too much damage. The swings are supposed to be erratic, but with the +hit numbers we can reach, it's possible to reach a situation where you almost have to try to miss.

I'd argue that the Ranger double-slide needs some sort of penalty to hit, but I have no idea what could possibly balance it across multiple difficulties.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Ok, serious question here.

How does discussing hypothetical damage outputs on classes where powers aren't defined and class cards are about to be re-done actually help anything?

Why does damage output of one class vs. another matter at all? If you want to be the best damage dealer there is, play Monk (or soon, Wizard). It is a team game. If I'm playing Paladin, I know that my guarding the wizards often means we don't get attacked, leaving them to channel HP into spells.

If we kill the monster in 1 or 2 rounds, we all participated. Are there bragging rights in some parties that we just don't have in mine? That seems kind of annoying honestly.

If someone is overgeared for their difficulty level and doesn't tone it down, that would take a LOT of the fun out of it for me.

I guess people (this is not aimed at any one person) just like the debate?

Anyhow /rant


Maybe it's different at Epic level, but in my experience I can't recall the last time any of us sliders even cared what the casters were casting, let alone how much damage they were doing. They could be off playing canasta with the DM for all we care.


“Apply STR/2 bonus to hit to each slider, apply STR bonus to damage to each slider”
Scales perfectly as tokens do.

Harder to calculate in the dungeon though.

The following suggestion changes nothing with the core rules, but just adjusts the monk. Perhaps it doesn’t go far enough, but it’s also less disruptive.

2nd ed DnD has a penalty for using 2 weapons. Maybe Adapt it to TD?

For monk, this is pretty easy to do without disrupting the new player experience.

2 weapon style - -2 to hit for sliding 2 pucks

Change base monk str to 9, or even 7.

Add rule: fists of steel. Monk gains +4 hit and +2 damage when using empty pucks.

Eventually it makes sense to swap from fists to weapons, but it would take a serious chunk out of monk base +hit (it’s -5 hit / -3 damage from where we are now)

This moves the BIS monk build in my phone from +23 hit to +18, which may have a real impact on damage due to misses.


The problem with Monks is DAMAGE caused by 2 attacks, not the likelyhood of hitting.

If the damage is not addressed nothing will change and every new +STR or +melee damage token will make the damage gap even wider.

Changing their chance to hit doesn't address the damage problem


I don't really follow here. If you don't hit you don't do damage. If you have to add +hit back to the build you are sacrificing damage.

Also TD can also address melee damage by making 19 and 20 harder to hit on the slider board. In VTD this does not work, but if VTD keeps being a thing I would expect them to move to a more sophisticated client that might allow for more than a 1d10 roll to see if you hit.


Thank you Wade for throwing in logic there, I am sorry no one is paying attention.

First, it is interesting that you aren't paying attention to what the Mages are doing as they usually kill things before sliders even get a chance to slide. Their damage output is absoutely incredable.

Second, each and every character is unique. Each character does what each character does. I think it is rather funny that you are attacking two weapon characters as if they are somehow broken. I play with a Barbarian that does plus 28 attack and plus 70 damage...each character type does something unique and has their fighting style. Are you going to make the bard do a lot more damage to catch up to the damage dealing classes? Or the Paladin? Rangers AC is usually 10 or even 15 points lower than the Fighters because they don't have access to the top armors. The Ranger's relic is also for ranged combat so they can't even max themselves out for the two weapon combat. There are plenty of negatives to each class to go along with the positives.

Each class has a role and the type of play that maximises them.

Fighters good attacks good armor no negatives really, just good at combat and defense.
Barbarians good at two weapon attacks usuly higher damage but lower AC.
Rangers good at either ranged or two handed attacks but lower AC
Monks good with their two fists but harder to get AC
Cleric good at healing but not as good as attacking
Wizards broken amount of damage with spells but low AC and HP
Paladin good at guarding, high AC and secondary attacking and healing but harder to get great damage
Druids another good at everything class if done right. Good at healing, spell slinging, attacking. Not really many negatives except perhaps AC
Bards good at....support but hard to get AC and damage
Rogue good at...indivudual attacks, and support. but basic attacks can lag behind damage classes and hard to get good AC

Third, sliding with two hands is actually more difficult than sliding with one hand. I will completely agree that a tokened out Monk has the potential to deal the most damage. The key word is potential. Slding the two pucks back to back with one hand before the second puck stops is very difficult. As a combat GM it is rare even the most experienced monks hit well. Ranger is a little less difficult but Rangers don't seem to hit nearly as hard as you seem to think that they do. And again, they don't get very good armor as the trade off for the two weapon attacks.

Finally, as a combat GM I can tell you that I see by far the most damage come from the mages, followed by the monk and barbarian.

Power creap is real as clearly each class is capable of doing far more damage than they were even 6 years ago. Each class is unique and you have to set up the character to do what it does best. No class is truely better or worse, only different. Play the class you are suited to and you will do well. If you have the ability to slide 2 pucks really well, play the Ranger or Monk. Stop looking at it as one class is better because of theoretical damage disparities, than another because that is simply incorrect.
Proud member Dungeon Delver's Anonymous.

Team Kraken Killers

My name is Sean Hanlin, you killed my father, prepare to die.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by archmage78.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #226

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: [

Rangers and Monks can average 140+ damage per round each without crit so I have no idea why the Wizards doing the same damage, at the cost of lost HP would be an issue.


Can you please link a chacter build for these outputs? I play Ranger and I am as absolutely maxed out as I can build and I can't touch 140 plus points of damage without a critical hit. I am seriously not understanding where you got these numbers.
Proud member Dungeon Delver's Anonymous.

Team Kraken Killers

My name is Sean Hanlin, you killed my father, prepare to die.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #227

archmage78 wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: [

Rangers and Monks can average 140+ damage per round each without crit so I have no idea why the Wizards doing the same damage, at the cost of lost HP would be an issue.


Can you please link a chacter build for these outputs? I play Ranger and I am as absolutely maxed out as I can build and I can't touch 140 plus points of damage without a critical hit. I am seriously not understanding where you got these numbers.


I am also interested in this as well as I just put together a monk using all of the strength modifies I could find in the TDCC and got a minimum of 56 to a max of 61 per puck without using consumables, support from other classes, or bard song. If I missed something I would be happy to modify the build and review the values provided, but I am not seeing 140+ with just a build alone. It should also be worth noting that not all of these tokens are readily available to everybody with dropping a serious amount of money as well as no less than 4 legendary tokens. I think Legendary tokens should get you something nice since they are not cheap to make and usually result in many dungeon runs and monetary investment in the form of token purchases.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/5e3e0619-1777-499f-a74d-b58c85b32fdc

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 10 months ago #228

  • NightGod
  • NightGod's Avatar
  • Offline
  • 9th Level
  • Supporter
  • It's only push damage...how bad could it be?!
  • Posts: 1007

Daniel Mickey wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: [

Rangers and Monks can average 140+ damage per round each without crit so I have no idea why the Wizards doing the same damage, at the cost of lost HP would be an issue.


Can you please link a chacter build for these outputs? I play Ranger and I am as absolutely maxed out as I can build and I can't touch 140 plus points of damage without a critical hit. I am seriously not understanding where you got these numbers.


I am also interested in this as well as I just put together a monk using all of the strength modifies I could find in the TDCC and got a minimum of 56 to a max of 61 per puck without using consumables, support from other classes, or bard song. If I missed something I would be happy to modify the build and review the values provided, but I am not seeing 140+ with just a build alone. It should also be worth noting that not all of these tokens are readily available to everybody with dropping a serious amount of money as well as no less than 4 legendary tokens. I think Legendary tokens should get you something nice since they are not cheap to make and usually result in many dungeon runs and monetary investment in the form of token purchases.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/5e3e0619-1777-499f-a74d-b58c85b32fdc

All of the theoretical builds in this thread have used crazy tokens, bard songs, etc. People are building for max possible, not max realistic.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.227 seconds