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TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #193

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Dave wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:
...snip...

Until we see that actual Wizard cards and the more detailed rules for the Legendary I am hesitant to comment, but with that said I have a question:

Should we be comparing a 1/game fighter combo that may or may not crit with a Wizard who can reset to full power with either an item (Gem of Last Hope) or a Cleric ability and do it again?


The analysis that two Wizards can do 500 damage in one round to two monsters (assuming the existence of a 40 point non-slide AoE spell) relied on:
1. Both Wizards exhausting a 1/game Ring of Spell Storing.
2. Both Wizard exhausting a 1/game cast of the theoretical 40 point non-slide AoE spell.

So both combos are 1/game.

The Fighter combo, after this, loses very little, they can keep doing this all day long and go down to 70% hit 20% crit on the HF (except for the new rooms where they can reslide 1/room for better values), and 70% hit, 10% crit, 10% triple crit on the DF.

The Wizards, on the other hand are now at 1 HP, don't have a way to cast 2 spells in a round, and need a to either start getting Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise to do a less effective burst with only 1 spell cast a second time. They also need to be burning ~$30 consumables that require a standard action to apply, or they need now full coordination from cleric and or druid classes as well to recharge their HP.


The Wizard Combos are definitely not once per game, like the Fighter example that you give, because the Wizards can do double spell casting and full MEC (assuming healing between rooms) at the start of every combat room via Cabal Bonus plus double spells for a second round in the Boss room via Ring of Spell Storing. Damage in the first round would range from 668 using best spells to 405 using only 0 level spells with Cabal Bonus. In Infernal Redoubt, the Wizards would be able to kill all monsters before the Final Room in the first round, and the two Final Room Boss monsters in 2 rounds (with plenty of damage left over). The Wizards don't even need healing after the first round in the final room to kill the two Boss monsters, they can do it without any additional 2nd round MEC damage. No healing within rooms is required for the Wizards to kill every monster in earlier rooms in one round and the Boss monsters in two rounds.

The Wizard 40 point area attack spell (given Jeff's statement that spell damages are doubling) isn't once per game like the Fighter ability. The Wizard can also cast it via Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of Expertise, getting three castings per game. I'm not counting Cleric Restore Spell on this or Cleric Restore Power for the Fighter, to make it an even comparison.

The Wizard is also not limited to just one round of double-spell casting from the Ring of Spell Storing, they can also double-spell cast once per room via the Cabal Set (3-4 additional double-castings per game).
==============================================
Detailed Analysis:
The two round estimate based on the 110 HP level, and the Cleric healing after round one. Removing the Cleric healing after round one reduces the two round total from 1116 to 960, which is still enough to kill both Boss Monsters

Cast Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 109 points, for 184 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, each Wizard can do 259 points of damage in the first turn. With both Wizards, you're looking at 518 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC. 160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while 358 damage is pool damage. Adding in the 160 damage to the second monster gets it to 668 damage in round one.

First round after Wizards cast, Cleric casts Full heal from Relic on one Wizard plus Cure Serious Wounds as instant action on the other Wizard (24 +25 healing bonus). One Wizards are back to 109 HP, the other to 50 HP.

Second Round: Wizard casts Lightning Storm via Crown of Expertise for 184 damage (40 plus 35 bonus damage plus 109 MEC damage) and Ray of Shock FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 71 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage) for 255 damage total.
Elf Wizard casts Ray of Shock for 121 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage plus 50 MEC damage) plus Fireball via Cabal Set Bonus & Crown of Expertise for 75 damage (40 plus 35 bonus damage) for a total of 196 damage.
Adding in no bonus damage for a 2nd monster because it's already dead, the Wizards do an additional 451 damage in round 2. That is a total of 1119 damage in the two rounds, only 160 of which is due to damage to a second monster. If it were a room with just a single monster, the total damage would still be 959 in two rounds.

Further, even without any healing after the first round (which would subtract the 159 MEC 2nd Round damage), the two Wizards could kill both Boss Monsters with 960 damage (it only takes 900 on Nightmare to kill both)
===============================================
To further address the one shot wonder comment, even in a room with only casting 0 Level lesser spells, the first round using Cabal (since Ring of Spell Storing was saved for the major combat) could look like this:

Wizard casts Fire Dart for 156 damage (12 plus 35 bonus damage plus 109 MEC damage) and Fire Dart FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 47 damage (12 plus 35 bonus damage) for 203 damage total.
Elf Wizard casts Shocking Grasp for 156 damage (12 plus 35 bonus damage plus 109 MEC damage) plus Shocking Grasp FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 47 damage (12 plus 35 bonus damage) for a total of 203 damage.
The Wizards combined do 403 damage, which is twice as much as needed to kill the Room 2 Snake Fiend on Nightmare Mode, and enough to kill the Fire Fiend in Room 5.

Summary: The Wizards could do between 405 in the 4th best room and 668 in the best room in the first round of every combat room in the Dungeon, partly because of the doubling of spell damage but primarily from being able to use MEC on every single spell. In Infernal Redoubt, the Wizards without any damage from any other party members would be able to kill the Room 2 and 5 monsters in one round and the two Final Boss Monsters in two rounds. This does assuming healing in-between rooms, but between the Cleric, Druid and Paladin there is easily enough group healing to do that even without using consumables.


Please post a build with 110 HP and 35 spell bonus, that equips all the spell feee action items or spell restoring items your scenario requires.

Please indicate if your analysis requires the use of bardsong and at what level.

Please indicate if this build has room for 3 treasure iouns and a treasure charm.

I'm definitely interested in this, too. I'm far from a BIS wizard, but even the "Hypotehtical max" character someone made a day or so ago to show what maxed out wizard HP could look like was 91HP and 29 Spell Damage (if you included the new 10hp stone and 7th tooth), didn't include RoSS or the new epic, no key of healing, no shirt of linked healing, involved multiple volunteer tokens and only had room for CoA for TEs. And don't get me started on the saves.

And, now that MEC is always 1:1 , that character it outdated since losing spell damage for HP no longer makes sense.


I think I've got it, but you need to dump the Cabal Set and the Charm of Spell Swapping. With a little finagling I can get to 109 hp with 36 spell damage

Head - Crown of Expertise
Eyes - Lenses of Focus
Left Ear - Earcuff of Inspiration
Right Ear - Earcuff of Orbits
Neck - Ashenne's Arch-Mage Medallion
Armor - Aron's Sunhide Robe
Wrists - Charm Bracelets
Hands - Blessed Tempest Gloves
Mainhand - Drake's +5 Staff of Focus
Missile Weapon - Thor's +5 Returning Hammer of Smiting
Back - Cloak of the Elm
Left Ring - Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus
Right Ring - Ring of Spell Storing
Third Ring - Ring of Greater Focus
Waist - Arcane Belt
Shirt - Shirt of Focus
Boots - Boots of the Four Winds
Legs - Kilt of Dungeonbane (Con)
Shin - Flameguard Greaves
Bead - Master Ale Drinker's Bead
Charm 1 - Charm of Avarice
Charm 2 - Charm of Awakened Synergy (assume entire party has it)
Charm 3 - Charm of Glory
Charm 4 - Greater Garnet Charm
Charm 5 - Garnet Charm

Ioun 1 - Gold Nugget
Ioun 2 - Silver Nugget
Ioun 3 - Platinum Nugget
Ioun 4 - Banshee Prism
Ioun 5 - Elfstone Shard
Ioun 6 - Charming Cabochon
Ioun 7 - Garnet Cube (or Elfstone Shard)
Specials (that impact stats)
Semi-Lich Skull & 7 individual teeth
Rod of Seven Parts Complete
Gregor's Tome of Focus
Totem Paint Crushed Ruby
Elixir of Vitality

The app (without 2021 tokens) tells me I'm at 88hp and 32 damage
I get 4 more damage from Earcuff of Inspiration to take damage to 36
I get the following additional hp
+1 for using the app (not included in total)
+10 for Elfstone Shard
+10 for Master Ale Drinker's Bead since I'm on an odd constitution number
That should get me to 109. I could throw in a Yew Runestone if I had more and go to 110hp


Edwin, if you swap in the Cabal set, how much damage bonus and/or HP do you lose? I can redo my analysis based on that. I want it to be accurate. Thanks!


I can play with it, but putting the Cabal set back in creates a lot of downstream impacts. You lost the Charm Bracelet, so you have to put Arcane Earcuff in to keep the charms, but then you lose Ioun Stones, which are essential to hp. Honestly, I'm thinking 90hp and 31-32 spell damage is more doable.


It looks to me like you would lose Garnet Charm and Greater Garnet Charm (losing +3 Con), Charm of Glory which costs Ring of Greater Focus (losing +3 Spell damage), and Blessed Tempest Gloves (Losing +3 Spell Damage). You gain at least +1 Spell Damage back. So, net loss would be three to five points of spell damage and either 5 or 10 HP. That would make it (worst case) 100 HP and +30 Spell Damage (potentially as good as 105 HP and +32 Spell Damage, but I'll go worst case). I can run the numbers again later based on that.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #194

Dropping this right here for consideration for next year.


Death Knight Mail
truedungeon.com/sets
+6 AC &
+1 STR
All except Monk & Wizards

Set Bonus: Deals 4 pts of damage to any monster that hits wearer in melee
Please check out my trade post located here!

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #195

Endgame wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Allen John wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The problem you are going to see removing bonus from the second puck is asking Rangers and Monks to accept a loss of 30+ damage per turn.

That doesn't seem like something they will be willing to take lightly


At least with Rangers, I've come around to thinking the problem is that it's too easy to hit, not that the hits do too much damage. The swings are supposed to be erratic, but with the +hit numbers we can reach, it's possible to reach a situation where you almost have to try to miss.

I'd argue that the Ranger double-slide needs some sort of penalty to hit, but I have no idea what could possibly balance it across multiple difficulties.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Ok, serious question here.

How does discussing hypothetical damage outputs on classes where powers aren't defined and class cards are about to be re-done actually help anything?

Why does damage output of one class vs. another matter at all? If you want to be the best damage dealer there is, play Monk (or soon, Wizard). It is a team game. If I'm playing Paladin, I know that my guarding the wizards often means we don't get attacked, leaving them to channel HP into spells.

If we kill the monster in 1 or 2 rounds, we all participated. Are there bragging rights in some parties that we just don't have in mine? That seems kind of annoying honestly.

If someone is overgeared for their difficulty level and doesn't tone it down, that would take a LOT of the fun out of it for me.

I guess people (this is not aimed at any one person) just like the debate?

Anyhow /rant


Maybe it's different at Epic level, but in my experience I can't recall the last time any of us sliders even cared what the casters were casting, let alone how much damage they were doing. They could be off playing canasta with the DM for all we care.


“Apply STR/2 bonus to hit to each slider, apply STR bonus to damage to each slider”
Scales perfectly as tokens do.

Harder to calculate in the dungeon though.

The following suggestion changes nothing with the core rules, but just adjusts the monk. Perhaps it doesn’t go far enough, but it’s also less disruptive.

2nd ed DnD has a penalty for using 2 weapons. Maybe Adapt it to TD?

For monk, this is pretty easy to do without disrupting the new player experience.

2 weapon style - -2 to hit for sliding 2 pucks

Change base monk str to 9, or even 7.

Add rule: fists of steel. Monk gains +4 hit and +2 damage when using empty pucks.

Eventually it makes sense to swap from fists to weapons, but it would take a serious chunk out of monk base +hit (it’s -5 hit / -3 damage from where we are now)

This moves the BIS monk build in my phone from +23 hit to +18, which may have a real impact on damage due to misses.


The problem with Monks is DAMAGE caused by 2 attacks, not the likelyhood of hitting.

If the damage is not addressed nothing will change and every new +STR or +melee damage token will make the damage gap even wider.

Changing their chance to hit doesn't address the damage problem

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #196

Guedoji wrote: Dropping this right here for consideration for next year.


Death Knight Mail
truedungeon.com/sets
+6 AC &
+1 STR
All except Monk & Wizards

Set Bonus: Deals 4 pts of damage to any monster that hits wearer in melee


I like it. :)

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #197

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Dropping this right here for consideration for next year.


Death Knight Mail
truedungeon.com/sets
+6 AC &
+1 STR
All except Monk & Wizards

Set Bonus: Deals 4 pts of damage to any monster that hits wearer in melee


I like it. :)


Death Cowl....
Head slot
+3 ranged damage
Wizards and rogues and rangers
Fall down......Go boom!

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #198

Since the strength bonus is the combined might of both arms maybe you get a pool of your strength bonus that is divided by the number of weapons....if one weapon doesnt hit you lose that part of the pool.
Fall down......Go boom!

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #199

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Dropping this right here for consideration for next year.


Death Knight Mail
truedungeon.com/sets
+6 AC &
+1 STR
All except Monk & Wizards

Set Bonus: Deals 4 pts of damage to any monster that hits wearer in melee


I like it. :)


Death Cowl....
Head slot
+3 ranged damage
Wizards and rogues and rangers


This is honestly too weak given Cranston's

It'd need to be +4 or more likely +5 to compete.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #200

Allen John wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The problem you are going to see removing bonus from the second puck is asking Rangers and Monks to accept a loss of 30+ damage per turn.

That doesn't seem like something they will be willing to take lightly


At least with Rangers, I've come around to thinking the problem is that it's too easy to hit, not that the hits do too much damage. The swings are supposed to be erratic, but with the +hit numbers we can reach, it's possible to reach a situation where you almost have to try to miss.

I'd argue that the Ranger double-slide needs some sort of penalty to hit, but I have no idea what could possibly balance it across multiple difficulties.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Ok, serious question here.

How does discussing hypothetical damage outputs on classes where powers aren't defined and class cards are about to be re-done actually help anything?

Why does damage output of one class vs. another matter at all? If you want to be the best damage dealer there is, play Monk (or soon, Wizard). It is a team game. If I'm playing Paladin, I know that my guarding the wizards often means we don't get attacked, leaving them to channel HP into spells.

If we kill the monster in 1 or 2 rounds, we all participated. Are there bragging rights in some parties that we just don't have in mine? That seems kind of annoying honestly.

If someone is overgeared for their difficulty level and doesn't tone it down, that would take a LOT of the fun out of it for me.

I guess people (this is not aimed at any one person) just like the debate?

Anyhow /rant


Maybe it's different at Epic level, but in my experience I can't recall the last time any of us sliders even cared what the casters were casting, let alone how much damage they were doing. They could be off playing canasta with the DM for all we care.


It’s different in Epic
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #201

This might have already been answered but unfortunately with 17 pages of responses I can't find it. Is the old mad evokers charm going to be the same as the new one?
Proud member Dungeon Delver's Anonymous.

Team Kraken Killers

My name is Sean Hanlin, you killed my father, prepare to die.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #202

Detailed Analysis:
Using the 100 HP level and +30 Spell Damage based on Edwin's modified build, and using the MEC as written and Jeff's statement that Wizard spells would double in damage on spellcards.
=======================================
First Room
Cast Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points, add 30 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 99 points, for 169 damage to the first monster and 40 to the second monster for 209 total.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points and 30 bonus spell damage for 70 points of damage to the first monster plus 40 to the second monster for 110 total.
Combining those two, each Wizard can do 319 points of damage in the first turn. With both Wizards, you're looking at 638 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC.

First round after Wizards cast, Cleric casts Full heal from Relic on one Wizard plus Cure Serious Wounds as instant action on the other Wizard (24 +25 healing bonus). One Wizard is back to 100 HP, the other to 50 HP.

Second Round: Wizard casts Lightning Storm via Crown of Expertise for 169 damage (40 plus 30 bonus damage plus 99 MEC damage) and Ray of Shock FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 66 damage (36 plus 30 bonus damage) for 235 damage total. There would be another 40 damage to a second monster but it died in round 1.
Elf Wizard casts Ray of Shock for 116 damage (36 plus 30 bonus damage plus 50 MEC damage) plus Fireball via Cabal Set Bonus & Crown of Expertise for 70 damage (40 plus 30 bonus damage) for a total of 186 damage.
Adding in no bonus damage for a 2nd monster because it's already dead, the Wizards do an additional 421 damage in round 2. That is a total of 1059 damage in the two rounds, only 160 of which is due to damage to a second monster. If it were a room with just a single monster, the total damage would still be 899 in two rounds.

Further, even without any healing after the first round (which would subtract the 149 MEC 2nd Round damage), the two Wizards could kill both Boss Monsters with 910 damage (it only takes 900 on Nightmare to kill both)
===============================================
The Room 5 monster (Fire Fiend) would use the next best spells:
Wizard casts Scorching Ray for 165 damage (36 plus 30 bonus damage plus 99 MEC damage) and Magic Missile FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 52 damage (22 plus 30 bonus damage) for 217 damage total.
Elf Wizard casts Magic Missile for 151 damage (22 plus 30 bonus damage plus 99 MEC damage) plus Magic Missile FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 52 damage (22 plus 30 bonus damage) for a total of 203 damage.
The Wizards combined do 420 damage, which is enough to kill the Room 5 Fire Fiend on Nightmare Mode (400 HP).
===============================================
The Room 2 Monster would use the best remaining spells:
Wizard casts Magic Missile for 151 damage (22 plus 30 bonus damage plus 99 MEC damage) and Magic Missile FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 52 damage (22 plus 30 bonus damage) for 203 damage total.
Elf Wizard casts Magic Missile for 151 damage (22 plus 30 bonus damage plus 99 MEC damage) plus Acid Ray FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 54 damage (24 plus 30 bonus damage) for a total of 205 damage.
The Wizards combined do 408 damage, which is twice as much as needed to kill the Room 5 Snake Fiend on Nightmare Mode (200 HP).
===============================================
If there were a fourth combat room, using only casting 0 Level lesser spells (which would make it the least amount of damage in four combat rooms), would look like this:

Wizard casts Fire Dart for 141 damage (12 plus 30 bonus damage plus 99 MEC damage) and Fire Dart FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 42 damage (12 plus 30 bonus damage) for 183 damage total.
Elf Wizard casts Shocking Grasp for 141 damage (12 plus 30 bonus damage plus 99 MEC damage) plus Shocking Grasp FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 42 damage (12 plus 30 bonus damage) for a total of 183 damage.
The Wizards combined do 366 damage, which is close to twice as much as needed to kill the Room 2 Snake Fiend on Nightmare Mode (200 HP).

Summary: The Wizards could do damage in Room 1 (366 damage 1st round), Room 2 (408 damage 1st round), Room 3 (420 damage 1st round) and Room 4 (638 round 1 plus 421 in Round 2 for 1059 total), partly because of the doubling of spell damage but primarily from being able to use MEC without a damage cap on every single spell. In Infernal Redoubt, the Wizards without any damage from any other party members would be able to kill the Room 2 and 5 monsters in one round and the two Final Boss Monsters in two rounds, and could have killed an additional monster in one round if there were four combat rooms, if it had 400 HP or less. This does assume healing in-between rooms, but between the Cleric, Druid and Paladin there is easily enough group healing to do that even without using consumables.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #203

archmage78 wrote: This might have already been answered but unfortunately with 17 pages of responses I can't find it. Is the old mad evokers charm going to be the same as the new one?


You can see it from the link on the first post. It is 1 damage per 1 HP, with no limits on how many HP spent or how many times it is activated (per the token text).

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 2 years 4 weeks ago #204

archmage78 wrote: This might have already been answered but unfortunately with 17 pages of responses I can't find it. Is the old mad evokers charm going to be the same as the new one?


Nope - currently it says you may channel 1 hp for 1 point of damage on a damage spell.

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