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TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #109

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #110

Aeroneus Martellus wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Aeroneus Martellus wrote: Out of curiosity - for all these damage calculations - has anyone also run the numbers to see what sort of support is needed to keep pumping the Wizard back to full health everytime?

Maybe it's a lot easier than I'm thinking, but we just keep talking about raw damage rather than how many potions I'd need to drink or how many points of healing the Cleric/Druid would need to give me every single round. EDIT: And could they sustain it - and how much would remain for ACTUAL room damage and other party members.


If you can kill the monster in two rounds, as long as you have a healer for each Wizard, you can do something like:
Round 1: Wizards Nova strike, then get healed
Round 2: Wizards get healed and then Nova strike. Then pray monster is dead because otherwise your Wizards probably are.

That's using 4 healing spells from your healer (1SA and 1 FA each round) per combat. 2nd Nova strike should be able to be pretty close to full power, maybe a few HP low. Depends on the specific HP the Wizard has at max.

If you got through all 3 combats that way, your healers have used up 12 of their spells. We'll assume CoSS, because otherwise you ran out already. Cleric still has 3 spells that could heal left. Druid has 4. But... wait. You probably burned all those between combats (along with a FoP: Phoenix and Cleric ressurection) so that the Wizards are recharged at the start of combat 2 and 3. So the only healing you've got for puzzles or damage from monsters is from RoSS and Crown of Expertise (and you might have needed those between combats to top off the Wizard). Hopefully you brought along a Bard for Sooth Wounds on the puzzles. And consumables for monster damage.


So sounds like it's doable-ish but you're almost better off having a smaller party because no one else is gonna get healed? So the avg damage/character has to go up to compensate. And everyone is running UR+ builds.


I think you almost play a guessing game of how much damage you're going to need to dish out to make sure you kill combat 1 and 2 in two rounds. See where that takes you for additional needed damage, and then see who fits.

Oh, and toss Cloak of Blending on the Cleric, Druid, and Bard to cut down on the chance of your healing getting taken out.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #111

Aeroneus Martellus wrote: .EDIT: And if I don't have a Druid AND a Cleric buffing me, I'm not doing this insane damage. I ONLY get to do the damage IF I'm working together with the other two, and if either or both is missing (which I've done runs before as) then I'm on my own.


One maxed-out healer is needed per Wizard to keep them going. Cabal Set and the new Ring are needed for Druid to crank out enough FA heals. Cleric will need their Legendary.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #112

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP


It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.


103... I think... not 100% sure if I have everything. had to do manual math on the +3 con from bead, and +10 hp ioun stone while otherwise maximizing spell damage and hp. No point in cabal set if you are using spell storing, and you rarely (never) get to +3 damage on the bracers but otherwise I think this is accurate.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/21e5f7b0-30d0-4e46-bd15-aa1dcb120b32

edit: 92. - forgot synergy.
edit: 97 - Garnet sphere rounds us up anouther +5hp
edit: 103 - Charming Cahochon
edit: 110 - semi lich skull can potentially get you anouther 6+1 at the time 2021 tokens release


That would add another 100 MEC damage in round one, another 50 MEC damage from the Wizard after the full heal, and whatever excess healing the Cleric had from the other heal (maybe conservatively another 10 points). That would be another 160 damage over the two turns, or 1090 total damage by the two Wizards over two rounds.

Guess wizards got their wish - not only did they jump ahead of monk, but they pretty much can account for more damage than the rest of the single puck sliders combined, right?


Smak on a crit hits 300+ damage at no HP cost.

Wizards can hit the 300ish damage at a cost of 50+ HP

Yes Wizards are getting more damage but we don't single handedly outdamage everyone

Really? The serious request is to actually out damage someone using a one of a kind, soul bound, artifact that isn’t guaranteed a crit by any wizard without chance of failure?

Isn’t that over reaching just a tad?


Excellent point.


All spells have a chance of failure, based on monster and module design.

What was the last monster that completely denied spells? I’m not aware of any since I started, but I spent over 3/4 of that time playing normal.

The closest I’m aware of was the ogre mage in... n1(?), where Magic missile still worked.


I didn't say, and I'm not defending the position that: "there are lots of monsters that completely deny spells."

What I said, and what I am defending, is the position that Wizard spells are not correctly characterized as being "without a chance of failure."

But since you asked - off the top of my head:

The red scrael in two rooms of the Rothfus dungeon completely denied spells if attached to a spellcaster.

The Orge Mage at various points in the con and at various difficulties I believe completely negated all magic. Perhaps Magic Missile always worked - that still leaves the majority of spells (including the ones being theorycrafted in this thread) ineffective.

There was an Ethereal stalker that:
a. Set up a decoy round 1 where nothing damaged it - oops if you blown any resources on that round...
b. Had some very substantial resistance to non-force spell damage (perhaps complete immunity)
c. Could also grab a party member preventing them from doing anything

The first time we encountered the Mindslayer all single target ranged attacks either missed automatically, or suffered a 50% miss chance (I can't remember which off the top of my head).

The Elder Orb completely shut off all magic for 1/3rd of the party each round on a rotating basis if I recall correctly.

In the underwater dungeon one couldn't cast spells or use magic without a variety of things that imparted first the ability to breathe underwater, and then the ability to speak underwater (two separate effects).

In the cold dungeon there was some effect that prevented casting, or gave it a failure chance if certain gear wasn't equipped (I forget the specifics of this one).

Anyway - the point is: Spells have a chance of failing, based on module or monster design.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #113

Fiddy wrote:

Aeroneus Martellus wrote: .EDIT: And if I don't have a Druid AND a Cleric buffing me, I'm not doing this insane damage. I ONLY get to do the damage IF I'm working together with the other two, and if either or both is missing (which I've done runs before as) then I'm on my own.


One maxed-out healer is needed per Wizard to keep them going. Cabal Set and the new Ring are needed for Druid to crank out enough FA heals. Cleric will need their Legendary.


Must have been in another thread - but the whole Channeling the power of Pelor's through a Wizard is very appropriate here then. I'm dealing damage for 2 not just 1.
"Not So Exclusive" "Exclusively" Elf Wizard

Also run as "MElf - a Thor Wielding Tank"!

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #114

Fiddy wrote:

Aeroneus Martellus wrote: Out of curiosity - for all these damage calculations - has anyone also run the numbers to see what sort of support is needed to keep pumping the Wizard back to full health everytime?

Maybe it's a lot easier than I'm thinking, but we just keep talking about raw damage rather than how many potions I'd need to drink or how many points of healing the Cleric/Druid would need to give me every single round. EDIT: And could they sustain it - and how much would remain for ACTUAL room damage and other party members.


If you can kill the monster in two rounds, as long as you have a healer for each Wizard, you can do something like:
Round 1: Wizards Nova strike, then get healed
Round 2: Wizards get healed and then Nova strike. Then pray monster is dead because otherwise your Wizards probably are.

That's using 4 healing spells from your healer (1SA and 1 FA each round) per combat. 2nd Nova strike should be able to be pretty close to full power, maybe a few HP low. Depends on the specific HP the Wizard has at max.

If you got through all 3 combats that way, your healers have used up 12 of their spells. We'll assume CoSS, because otherwise you ran out already. Cleric still has 3 spells that could heal left. Druid has 4. But... wait. You probably burned all those between combats (along with a FoP: Phoenix and Cleric ressurection) so that the Wizards are recharged at the start of combat 2 and 3. So the only healing you've got for puzzles or damage from monsters is from RoSS and Crown of Expertise (and you might have needed those between combats to top off the Wizard). Hopefully you brought along a Bard for Sooth Wounds on the puzzles. And consumables for monster damage.


With the double strike ability on the fighter legendary, I am anticipating more multiple monster encounters. That will add complication. A Paladin able to guard two can be an asset. As can a Dwarf with Taunt.

Now do you care about our AC? :P :P :P :P
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #115

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


That's assuming then multiple critical hits and multiple opponents, which most rooms won't have. The Wizards don't need critical hits or multiple opponents to do even more damage (even though multiple opponents do really stack up the damage with Wizard area effect spells).

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #116

Harlax wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Aeroneus Martellus wrote: Out of curiosity - for all these damage calculations - has anyone also run the numbers to see what sort of support is needed to keep pumping the Wizard back to full health everytime?

Maybe it's a lot easier than I'm thinking, but we just keep talking about raw damage rather than how many potions I'd need to drink or how many points of healing the Cleric/Druid would need to give me every single round. EDIT: And could they sustain it - and how much would remain for ACTUAL room damage and other party members.


If you can kill the monster in two rounds, as long as you have a healer for each Wizard, you can do something like:
Round 1: Wizards Nova strike, then get healed
Round 2: Wizards get healed and then Nova strike. Then pray monster is dead because otherwise your Wizards probably are.

That's using 4 healing spells from your healer (1SA and 1 FA each round) per combat. 2nd Nova strike should be able to be pretty close to full power, maybe a few HP low. Depends on the specific HP the Wizard has at max.

If you got through all 3 combats that way, your healers have used up 12 of their spells. We'll assume CoSS, because otherwise you ran out already. Cleric still has 3 spells that could heal left. Druid has 4. But... wait. You probably burned all those between combats (along with a FoP: Phoenix and Cleric ressurection) so that the Wizards are recharged at the start of combat 2 and 3. So the only healing you've got for puzzles or damage from monsters is from RoSS and Crown of Expertise (and you might have needed those between combats to top off the Wizard). Hopefully you brought along a Bard for Sooth Wounds on the puzzles. And consumables for monster damage.


With the double strike ability on the fighter legendary, I am anticipating more multiple monster encounters. That will add complication. A Paladin able to guard two can be an asset. As can a Dwarf with Taunt.

Now do you care about our AC? :P :P :P :P


No, but it'll be fun for retribution damage.....
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #117

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


That's assuming then multiple critical hits and multiple opponents, which most rooms won't have. The Wizards don't need critical hits or multiple opponents to do even more damage (even though multiple opponents do really stack up the damage with Wizard area effect spells).


Mike are you really criticizing me for coming up with an example where multiple opponents are in play, which most room's won't have, when your own analysis initial included multiple opponents, and the assumption of a non-existent 40 point AoE damage spell without a slide?

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #118

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


That's assuming then multiple critical hits and multiple opponents, which most rooms won't have. The Wizards don't need critical hits or multiple opponents to do even more damage (even though multiple opponents do really stack up the damage with Wizard area effect spells).


Due to the Wizards having a +damage pool and fighters having no split I think they may have the edge on multi target fights even with the MEC or necklaces currently.

Mage Powers could change that but as printed I think the fighters have a minor advantage.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #119

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


That's assuming then multiple critical hits and multiple opponents, which most rooms won't have. The Wizards don't need critical hits or multiple opponents to do even more damage (even though multiple opponents do really stack up the damage with Wizard area effect spells).


Mike are you really criticizing me for coming up with an example where multiple opponents are in play, which most room's won't have, when your own analysis initial included multiple opponents, and the assumption of a non-existent 40 point AoE damage spell without a slide?


Matthew, there was no criticism, just pointing out that the Wizard does more damage against single opponents than does the Fighter which is most rooms, while the Fighter gains a bigger boost against two opponents (not more damage, just a bigger boost). And your example depends on multiple critical hits, which is not going to happen all the time.

It's clear that the Wizard should do more damage than a Fighter based on recent guidance from Jeff. Jeff just needs to decide how much is the right amount. To me, two Wizards being more than able to kill the two Nightmare Mode Boss monsters in Infernal Redoubt in two rounds without any other damage from the group is too powerful, but I'm not the one that decides.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #120

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


Where are you getting all these slides from?


Also if a fighter is skilled at sliding there is a chance at getting a crit. Lot harder to do honestly than in VTD.

Wizards are an auto hit

In my observations as a fighter I rarely get to slide first. Often behind the ranger/monk/rogue so there is usually a minefield to worry about.

It’s quite a stretch to connect the two cases

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