TOPIC: SUPER Final Transmuted Images

Acid Pezz wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.

Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.

If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.

I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.

Agreed, it would be fine as FA non damage spells. The Buff spells are the key - you’re better off waiting till after combat to heal.

Yes, please, add level 1.

I don’t think you need a “non-damage” limit. Our only L1 or 2 damage spell is Spiritual Hammer, and with only one puck we can’t Hammer and Melee in the same round anyway. If we do get future damage spells, and that’s a big if, I’d imagine they’ll be either sliding or with some other limitation (Searing Light) as they are now. All class changes will take the class-specific tokens into consideration, not just for clerics.

But if that’s the only way we can have L1 FA on the relic, I’ll take it. And I might even make one. As it stands, I’m still not convinced I will.

Agree with including 1st lev. spells FA for cleric relic/legendary. I don't see any reason to dis-allow damaging spells. Clerics aren't going to shoot up to top damage per round if they get that.

+1 to the adding 1st level spells.
The more I read the token the more I get a little less happy with it. I want to use it to buff the party and slide but as this is it didn’t give us any more slots for pray or for bless so I still have to spell swap if I want to pray every round and have arcane set for a 4 combat room.

Miathan wrote:

Acid Pezz wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.

Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.

If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.

I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.

Agreed, it would be fine as FA non damage spells. The Buff spells are the key - you’re better off waiting till after combat to heal.

Yes, please, add level 1.

I don’t think you need a “non-damage” limit. Our only L1 or 2 damage spell is Spiritual Hammer, and with only one puck we can’t Hammer and Melee in the same round anyway. If we do get future damage spells, and that’s a big if, I’d imagine they’ll be either sliding or with some other limitation (Searing Light) as they are now. All class changes will take the class-specific tokens into consideration, not just for clerics.

But if that’s the only way we can have L1 FA on the relic, I’ll take it. And I might even make one. As it stands, I’m still not convinced I will.

Agree with including 1st lev. spells FA for cleric relic/legendary. I don't see any reason to dis-allow damaging spells. Clerics aren't going to shoot up to top damage per round if they get that.

+1 to the adding 1st level spells.
The more I read the token the more I get a little less happy with it. I want to use it to buff the party and slide but as this is it didn’t give us any more slots for pray or for bless so I still have to spell swap if I want to pray every round and have arcane set for a 4 combat room.

+2 to adding 1st level spells. I'd think at the legendary would be better personally since it gives more reason to go up to consolidate slots. Seeing the effect at all though would be wonderful.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: I've played Fighter since 2007 when a frantic guy popped out of the large wooden doors of the Marriott ballroom and asked if I'd like to join his party. I did, and on that run, in the hallway between rooms, I found an uncommon Bastard Sword on the floor that I used for the next four years.

Over the years, my gear has gotten better but I've always stayed a sword and shield Fighter. Today, I use Welfor's and the Blessed Redoubt Shield. I have added EVERY possible maxed-out Str and a fair amount of damage buffs to my build including...

Redoubt Set
Stupendous Pendant
Surtr's
Mithral Gauntlets
Shirt of Blessed Strength
Kilt of the Dungeonbane (Str)
Boots of the Four Winds
Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Greater Onyx Charm
Rod of Seven Parts Segment 1
Fiendish Charm

Ring of the Eel
Ring of the Drake
Decay Runestone
Rungestone Fitting base with another Decay Runestone
Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism

...and still only do an average of 41 pts of damage with melee per round. I run with a great crew who are also maxed-out or close to maxed-out in their classes which means combat lasts 2 rounds on Nightmare if we're really unlucky. Using his Legendary backstab twice with the Viper Strike bonus, our Rogue does at least 100 pts of damage for those two rounds. The Barbarian does a little more. Do I need to even mention the Ranger's damage?

My point is, these other classes have other abilities that put stat bonuses to work. Fighters do not. Even with our new abilities on the Legendary token, we are still at the BOTTOM of the damage pile. If that where you want Fighters to be, then these tokens are just right. If you think Fighters should be closer to the middle, give us the stats back. If you want us on par with Babarians and Rogue, expand our crit to 18-20 with a one-handed melee weapon.

Here are just some of the voices who agree with me. There are many more.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Fighter needs to go back, at least at legendary. A bump from Relic seems fine though. Maybe make the legendary +2 Str?

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, please put the Fighters back.

Unless you're also planning to adjust the Fighter card soon in some way to bump them up, the previous iteration does not result in some overpowered build.

Endgame wrote: I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.

Harlax wrote: OMG

It was late and I missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.

Thanks for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Fighter

+1. The fighters debated the stats endlessly and I do not believe they are in a "broken" place before this reduction. Granting power attack at the legendary while simultaneously removing stats seems to work against each other.

James Bennett wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: I've played Fighter since 2007 when a frantic guy popped out of the large wooden doors of the Marriott ballroom and asked if I'd like to join his party. I did, and on that run, in the hallway between rooms, I found an uncommon Bastard Sword on the floor that I used for the next four years.

Over the years, my gear has gotten better but I've always stayed a sword and shield Fighter. Today, I use Welfor's and the Blessed Redoubt Shield. I have added EVERY possible maxed-out Str and a fair amount of damage buffs to my build including...

Redoubt Set
Stupendous Pendant
Surtr's
Mithral Gauntlets
Shirt of Blessed Strength
Kilt of the Dungeonbane (Str)
Boots of the Four Winds
Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Greater Onyx Charm
Rod of Seven Parts Segment 1
Fiendish Charm

Ring of the Eel
Ring of the Drake
Decay Runestone
Rungestone Fitting base with another Decay Runestone
Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism

...and still only do an average of 41 pts of damage with melee per round. I run with a great crew who are also maxed-out or close to maxed-out in their classes which means combat lasts 2 rounds on Nightmare if we're really unlucky. Using his Legendary backstab twice with the Viper Strike bonus, our Rogue does at least 100 pts of damage for those two rounds. The Barbarian does a little more. Do I need to even mention the Ranger's damage?

My point is, these other classes have other abilities that put stat bonuses to work. Fighters do not. Even with our new abilities on the Legendary token, we are still at the BOTTOM of the damage pile. If that where you want Fighters to be, then these tokens are just right. If you think Fighters should be closer to the middle, give us the stats back. If you want us on par with Babarians and Rogue, expand our crit to 18-20 with a one-handed melee weapon.

Here are just some of the voices who agree with me. There are many more.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Fighter needs to go back, at least at legendary. A bump from Relic seems fine though. Maybe make the legendary +2 Str?

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, please put the Fighters back.

Unless you're also planning to adjust the Fighter card soon in some way to bump them up, the previous iteration does not result in some overpowered build.

Endgame wrote: I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.

Harlax wrote: OMG

It was late and I missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.

Thanks for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Fighter

+1. The fighters debated the stats endlessly and I do not believe they are in a "broken" place before this reduction. Granting power attack at the legendary while simultaneously removing stats seems to work against each other.

Just for clarification, I wasn't proposing removing stats at the Legendary Level. I think the Relic is overpowered, but if the Legendary is appropriately powered then any stat reductions at the Relic level could be added back in at the Legendary level.

It's non-intuitive to go from +3 Dex to +2 Dex when moving from UR to relic.

I like seeing non-AC stats (+2 str) on the death knight armor. Gives those classes that are supposed to have the best armor more options. If it's "too high" then drop the AC by a point so the total stats sum up to 10 like the lucky plate armor.

Or hell, +5 AC and +4 STR. I bet a lot of Fighters would easily pick that up.

Picc wrote: Personally I would rather just see a statement that fighters will get more stats on the card redesign we are apperntly starting next week. That would help all fighters not just the top end who are around this year to get the legendaries.

Also for the cleric relic is it just 2nd level spells or upto second level? Never sure given how things are compressed to fit on tokens.

P.s. Also how wondering if the str from the relic neck didn't so much disappear as move to the quite possibly bis death knight armor along with the assumption top end warriors would wear both.

Were fighters promised a redesigned card? I thought that was only Wizards.

Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote: Personally I would rather just see a statement that fighters will get more stats on the card redesign we are apperntly starting next week. That would help all fighters not just the top end who are around this year to get the legendaries.

Also for the cleric relic is it just 2nd level spells or upto second level? Never sure given how things are compressed to fit on tokens.

P.s. Also how wondering if the str from the relic neck didn't so much disappear as move to the quite possibly bis death knight armor along with the assumption top end warriors would wear both.

Were fighters promised a redesigned card? I thought that was only Wizards.

Long long ago, the plan seemed to be to have all the cards redesigned for 2021. Then we got to 2021 token development without that happening. Then as part of the drastic last-minute change for Wizard transmutes, Jeff mentioned starting their card redesign next week.

It is pretty easy to jump to the conclusion that the other card redesigns would also get tackled thereafter. But Jeff didn't say that.

A lot of us may hope that. But Jeff didn't say it.

Picc wrote: Personally I would rather just see a statement that fighters will get more stats on the card redesign we are apperntly starting next week. That would help all fighters not just the top end who are around this year to get the legendaries.

Also for the cleric relic is it just 2nd level spells or upto second level? Never sure given how things are compressed to fit on tokens.

P.s. Also how wondering if the str from the relic neck didn't so much disappear as move to the quite possibly bis death knight armor along with the assumption top end warriors would wear both.

Top end Warrior. No one with the redoubt set is going to do that. Give up 2 sTR to Gain 2 STR?

If that is the rationale , why did DEX change.

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: I've played Fighter since 2007 when a frantic guy popped out of the large wooden doors of the Marriott ballroom and asked if I'd like to join his party. I did, and on that run, in the hallway between rooms, I found an uncommon Bastard Sword on the floor that I used for the next four years.

Over the years, my gear has gotten better but I've always stayed a sword and shield Fighter. Today, I use Welfor's and the Blessed Redoubt Shield. I have added EVERY possible maxed-out Str and a fair amount of damage buffs to my build including...

Redoubt Set
Stupendous Pendant
Surtr's
Mithral Gauntlets
Shirt of Blessed Strength
Kilt of the Dungeonbane (Str)
Boots of the Four Winds
Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Greater Onyx Charm
Rod of Seven Parts Segment 1
Fiendish Charm

Ring of the Eel
Ring of the Drake
Decay Runestone
Rungestone Fitting base with another Decay Runestone
Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism

...and still only do an average of 41 pts of damage with melee per round. I run with a great crew who are also maxed-out or close to maxed-out in their classes which means combat lasts 2 rounds on Nightmare if we're really unlucky. Using his Legendary backstab twice with the Viper Strike bonus, our Rogue does at least 100 pts of damage for those two rounds. The Barbarian does a little more. Do I need to even mention the Ranger's damage?

My point is, these other classes have other abilities that put stat bonuses to work. Fighters do not. Even with our new abilities on the Legendary token, we are still at the BOTTOM of the damage pile. If that where you want Fighters to be, then these tokens are just right. If you think Fighters should be closer to the middle, give us the stats back. If you want us on par with Babarians and Rogue, expand our crit to 18-20 with a one-handed melee weapon.

Here are just some of the voices who agree with me. There are many more.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Fighter needs to go back, at least at legendary. A bump from Relic seems fine though. Maybe make the legendary +2 Str?

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, please put the Fighters back.

Unless you're also planning to adjust the Fighter card soon in some way to bump them up, the previous iteration does not result in some overpowered build.

Endgame wrote: I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.

Harlax wrote: OMG

It was late and I missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.

Thanks for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Fighter

+1. The fighters debated the stats endlessly and I do not believe they are in a "broken" place before this reduction. Granting power attack at the legendary while simultaneously removing stats seems to work against each other.

Just for clarification, I wasn't proposing removing stats at the Legendary Level. I think the Relic is overpowered, but if the Legendary is appropriately powered then any stat reductions at the Relic level could be added back in at the Legendary level.

Totally cool with that.

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote: Personally I would rather just see a statement that fighters will get more stats on the card redesign we are apperntly starting next week. That would help all fighters not just the top end who are around this year to get the legendaries.

Also for the cleric relic is it just 2nd level spells or upto second level? Never sure given how things are compressed to fit on tokens.

P.s. Also how wondering if the str from the relic neck didn't so much disappear as move to the quite possibly bis death knight armor along with the assumption top end warriors would wear both.

Were fighters promised a redesigned card? I thought that was only Wizards.

Long long ago, the plan seemed to be to have all the cards redesigned for 2021. Then we got to 2021 token development without that happening. Then as part of the drastic last-minute change for Wizard transmutes, Jeff mentioned starting their card redesign next week.

It is pretty easy to jump to the conclusion that the other card redesigns would also get tackled thereafter. But Jeff didn't say that.

A lot of us may hope that. But Jeff didn't say it.

And I don't expect the wizard redesign to be a quick exercise. The entire redo of MEC and adding of mage and arch-mage abilities add to the complexity. You also have to redesign Wizard and Elf Wizard. And if the changes are significant enough a revisit of the subclass versions may be warranted. So that would be 4 cards to redo, the last two probably being a lower priority.

Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote: Personally I would rather just see a statement that fighters will get more stats on the card redesign we are apperntly starting next week. That would help all fighters not just the top end who are around this year to get the legendaries.

Also for the cleric relic is it just 2nd level spells or upto second level? Never sure given how things are compressed to fit on tokens.

P.s. Also how wondering if the str from the relic neck didn't so much disappear as move to the quite possibly bis death knight armor along with the assumption top end warriors would wear both.

Top end Warrior. No one with the redoubt set is going to do that. Give up 2 sTR to Gain 2 STR?

If that is the rationale , why did DEX change.

Redoubt set is +2 STR, +5 HP, and lots of AC, and we all know how fighters feel about AC. Even with 3 legendary pieces that’s what you get.

Death Knight armor and Crown of Might Is already effectively +4 to STR on 2 URs.

Then you get to choose for melee offhand between a:
Rare +2 to damage melee
Rare +2 to hit in melee
UR +2 to STR
With the fighter relic, Any shield ranging from 1-7 AC conveying an equivalent Reflex bonus.

Alternatively, you can drop crown of might, and wear any other head slot item while keeping your +2 STR the redoubt set used to give you.

Redoubt set is no longer BiS with Death knight armor in print for melee types who can use it - unless they prize AC and//or the +5 hp.