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TOPIC: SUPER Final Transmuted Images

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #61

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Harlax wrote: I edited my post before I saw your reply.

I’ll also remind you of the difference in cost of materials that will be involved. The kilt was cheap. This will not be.


3 URs and a fleece is cheap? I'd say that put it firmly into relic country.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #62

Picc wrote:

Harlax wrote: I edited my post before I saw your reply.

I’ll also remind you of the difference in cost of materials that will be involved. The kilt was cheap. This will not be.


3 URs and a fleece is cheap? I'd say that put it firmly into relic country.


And now I’m out. I’m going to try to get the rest of the sleep I did get.

Fair. But I was referring to the total cost for the legendary.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #63

The Kilt is also not in a Neck slot.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #64

Harlax crunched the numbers and hey showed that fighters are not game breaking.

The raw stats had a direct effect on our damage output and that was with the best 1-hand sword in the game as a baseline.

Even when he modified the numbers and added more crit, fighters were not breaking any records.

With it being the year of the Cleric, Fighter and Wizard, shouldn't they all get a chance to feel more powerful?

I feel we should put the stats back but put them on the legendary and 18-20 crit with 1-handed weapons.
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #65

I've played Fighter since 2007 when a frantic guy popped out of the large wooden doors of the Marriott ballroom and asked if I'd like to join his party. I did, and on that run, in the hallway between rooms, I found an uncommon Bastard Sword on the floor that I used for the next four years.

Over the years, my gear has gotten better but I've always stayed a sword and shield Fighter. Today, I use Welfor's and the Blessed Redoubt Shield. I have added EVERY possible maxed-out Str and a fair amount of damage buffs to my build including...

Redoubt Set
Stupendous Pendant
Surtr's
Mithral Gauntlets
Shirt of Blessed Strength
Kilt of the Dungeonbane (Str)
Boots of the Four Winds
Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Greater Onyx Charm
Rod of Seven Parts Segment 1
Fiendish Charm

Ring of the Eel
Ring of the Drake
Decay Runestone
Rungestone Fitting base with another Decay Runestone
Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism

...and still only do an average of 41 pts of damage with melee per round. I run with a great crew who are also maxed-out or close to maxed-out in their classes which means combat lasts 2 rounds on Nightmare if we're really unlucky. Using his Legendary backstab twice with the Viper Strike bonus, our Rogue does at least 100 pts of damage for those two rounds. The Barbarian does a little more. Do I need to even mention the Ranger's damage?

My point is, these other classes have other abilities that put stat bonuses to work. Fighters do not. Even with our new abilities on the Legendary token, we are still at the BOTTOM of the damage pile. If that where you want Fighters to be, then these tokens are just right. If you think Fighters should be closer to the middle, give us the stats back. If you want us on par with Babarians and Rogue, expand our crit to 18-20 with a one-handed melee weapon.

Here are just some of the voices who agree with me. There are many more.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Fighter needs to go back, at least at legendary. A bump from Relic seems fine though. Maybe make the legendary +2 Str?

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, please put the Fighters back.

Unless you're also planning to adjust the Fighter card soon in some way to bump them up, the previous iteration does not result in some overpowered build.

Endgame wrote: I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.

Harlax wrote: OMG

It was late and I missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.


Thanks for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Fighter
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Last edit: by SnakeEyes (Eric).
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #66

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Personally I would rather just see a statement that fighters will get more stats on the card redesign we are apperntly starting next week. That would help all fighters not just the top end who are around this year to get the legendaries.

Also for the cleric relic is it just 2nd level spells or upto second level? Never sure given how things are compressed to fit on tokens.

P.s. Also how wondering if the str from the relic neck didn't so much disappear as move to the quite possibly bis death knight armor along with the assumption top end warriors would wear both.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”
Last edit: by Picc.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #67

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.


I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.

Agreed, it would be fine as FA non damage spells. The Buff spells are the key - you’re better off waiting till after combat to heal.


Yes, please, add level 1.

I don’t think you need a “non-damage” limit. Our only L1 or 2 damage spell is Spiritual Hammer, and with only one puck we can’t Hammer and Melee in the same round anyway. If we do get future damage spells, and that’s a big if, I’d imagine they’ll be either sliding or with some other limitation (Searing Light) as they are now. All class changes will take the class-specific tokens into consideration, not just for clerics.

But if that’s the only way we can have L1 FA on the relic, I’ll take it. And I might even make one. As it stands, I’m still not convinced I will.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #68

so I guess no Ioun stone TE combined? to make epilogue, coaches work easier

along with people that carry for a whole party...one less book/case.bag to carry

not sure if it came up before, as I said I dont read the comments because of all the fighting
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #69

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: so I guess no Ioun stone TE combined? to make epilogue, coaches work easier

along with people that carry for a whole party...one less book/case.bag to carry

not sure if it came up before, as I said I dont read the comments because of all the fighting


I think the long and the short of it is that Jeff said the tokens would NEVER be used in a recipe.
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #70

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: so I guess no Ioun stone TE combined? to make epilogue, coaches work easier

along with people that carry for a whole party...one less book/case.bag to carry

not sure if it came up before, as I said I dont read the comments because of all the fighting


Chad, I and others recommended it during the Lords and Ladies discussions, but it wasn't added to the set in any of the iterations. I don't recall Jeff commenting on it, but then again there were large parts of the comments that I didn't read, so it could have been there somewhere.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #71

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: so I guess no Ioun stone TE combined? to make epilogue, coaches work easier

along with people that carry for a whole party...one less book/case.bag to carry

not sure if it came up before, as I said I dont read the comments because of all the fighting


Chad, I and others recommended it during the Lords and Ladies discussions, but it wasn't added to the set in any of the iterations. I don't recall Jeff commenting on it, but then again there were large parts of the comments that I didn't read, so it could have been there somewhere.

Jeff did not comment on it. Either it was not seen, or not wanted. Oh, and I have read every comment of every thread :)
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 9 months ago #72

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.


I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.

Agreed, it would be fine as FA non damage spells. The Buff spells are the key - you’re better off waiting till after combat to heal.


Yes, please, add level 1.

I don’t think you need a “non-damage” limit. Our only L1 or 2 damage spell is Spiritual Hammer, and with only one puck we can’t Hammer and Melee in the same round anyway. If we do get future damage spells, and that’s a big if, I’d imagine they’ll be either sliding or with some other limitation (Searing Light) as they are now. All class changes will take the class-specific tokens into consideration, not just for clerics.

But if that’s the only way we can have L1 FA on the relic, I’ll take it. And I might even make one. As it stands, I’m still not convinced I will.


Agree with including 1st lev. spells FA for cleric relic/legendary. I don't see any reason to dis-allow damaging spells. Clerics aren't going to shoot up to top damage per round if they get that.

Also a combined Ioune TE sounds awesome!
Last edit: by Acid Pezz.
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