TOPIC: SUPER Final Transmuted Images

Aothos wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.

Bump

+1

Full Disclosure: my Main class is Rogue, but Fighter is high on my list of alternates (with Barbarian and Ranger) so I do have an interest in the class, and acquiring Fighter tokens.

I've mostly held back in the Great Relic Debates because folks who play the class as their primary deserve to have their opinions heard. But if we're still tweaking the final tokens, this is something I've really been thinking about....

The Fighter (in live, Physical-world TD) is supposed to be over-all better at Fighting than the other classes.. not just be stronger/have more cool stuff. In the earliest iterations of TD, that was reflected by giving them more practice at the combat table, and better over-all stats. Now that everyone has access to better stats (via token design) & we've all played so much that the combat slides feel like second nature, that uniqueness is lost.

But I really like the way the RARE Fighter medallion gives some of that back, with the expanded crit range (even if it's just with Rare 1-h weapon & shield). I also like how the Legendary gives that expanded crit range. It's missing from the Relic, tho. And that feels odd.

Sure, many folks who've been playing TD since before Relic existed will have purchased various weapons which give them expanded crit range (Thor's, etc) ... but for a newer player purchasing their first class Relic, odds are good they don't have that going for them. It'd be kinda nice to have expanded crit on the Relic. Especially since the Rare highlights it as a cool Fighter power.

If we're tweaking this token down a notch in Strength, could we include the 19-20 crit range with 1h weapon on it again...? It won't make a difference at the high end of the Fighter range where folks are using Thors, but it'll make a big difference to a Fighter whose first UR weapon might be the Axe of the Dwarvish Kings.

Thanks for considering this, Jeff.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Fighter needs to go back, at least at legendary. A bump from Relic seems fine though.

Anybchance the mage name goes back to Slytherette?

Slithigarrette.

And no. The theme seemed to be Quessor’s has a familiar and spellbook, Slithigarrette has a spellbook but no familiar, Ashenne is mad.

Yes, Ashenne is Quite Mad. ... (at least, if this is the Ashenne I'm thinking of.)
You've got to be mad to hang out with someone who can shoot a laser beam from his eye!

Also, I really like the idea of both of them getting named tokens this year ; )

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.

Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.

Jeff, please put the Fighters back.

Unless you're also planning to adjust the Fighter card soon in some way to bump them up, the previous iteration does not result in some overpowered build.

First, with respect to the wizard items I'm fine with where we ended up.Maybe the wording can be cleaned up a little, but to me a higher level wizard using the relic or legendary is already going to need to know the mage and arch mage explanations in order to be able to fully use all of the abilities, so as long as there's a clear explanation of how the abilities are applied (1/room or not), we should be ok. I'm not sure I'd loan any of these tokens out to newer players as it might be a lot to take in and explain until they get some experience.

I might post more later, although maybe someone else already has, but this path does fundamentally change how many might approach their character build, especially at higher levels.

Raven wrote: Full Disclosure: my Main class is Rogue, but Fighter is high on my list of alternates (with Barbarian and Ranger) so I do have an interest in the class, and acquiring Fighter tokens.

I've mostly held back in the Great Relic Debates because folks who play the class as their primary deserve to have their opinions heard. But if we're still tweaking the final tokens, this is something I've really been thinking about....

The Fighter (in live, Physical-world TD) is supposed to be over-all better at Fighting than the other classes.. not just be stronger/have more cool stuff. In the earliest iterations of TD, that was reflected by giving them more practice at the combat table, and better over-all stats. Now that everyone has access to better stats (via token design) & we've all played so much that the combat slides feel like second nature, that uniqueness is lost.

But I really like the way the RARE Fighter medallion gives some of that back, with the expanded crit range (even if it's just with Rare 1-h weapon & shield). I also like how the Legendary gives that expanded crit range. It's missing from the Relic, tho. And that feels odd.

Sure, many folks who've been playing TD since before Relic existed will have purchased various weapons which give them expanded crit range (Thor's, etc) ... but for a newer player purchasing their first class Relic, odds are good they don't have that going for them. It'd be kinda nice to have expanded crit on the Relic. Especially since the Rare highlights it as a cool Fighter power.

If we're tweaking this token down a notch in Strength, could we include the 19-20 crit range with 1h weapon on it again...? It won't make a difference at the high end of the Fighter range where folks are using Thors, but it'll make a big difference to a Fighter whose first UR weapon might be the Axe of the Dwarvish Kings.

Thanks for considering this, Jeff.

I like this idea. It also allows room to tweak the legendary to 18-20 making it an upgrade with Thor’s equipped.

Skull of Cavadar has “XXX” as the text. I am not sure if that is a typo.

Also I thought we had agreed to put a damage wheel on it, so Druids could use it as a polymorph shape, or did I just dream that?

OrionW wrote: Skull of Cavadar has “XXX” as the text. I am not sure if that is a typo.

Also I thought we had agreed to put a damage wheel on it, so Druids could use it as a polymorph shape, or did I just dream that?

Was Jeff planning on numbering the skulls? If so, that would explain the XXX as a placeholder for the numbers.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."

My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions

Can you throw a link into the character generator website or something?

It's hard to know what to make of 65 damage a turn without seeing the build.

BiS, where boosting damage over saves/ac/flexibility takes priority in the build Monks under VtD rules do ~100 a round on average.

But I also think a similarly geared Fighter should have a melee damage bonus closer to 50 than to 36 (with power attack, but without Bardsong, Runestones, or Potion Bull's Strength)

While I’m not Harlax, here is the “really bad idea” max damage fighter that prioritizes Damage over everything. Site seems to be down at the moment, but I believe it’s a 2H +48 damage build. 1H is a little less.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/f514061b-bd5d-4cb7-a9b8-ce2c5595744e

I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.

Endgame wrote:
I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.

OMG

It was late and I missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.

Dave wrote:

OrionW wrote: Skull of Cavadar has “XXX” as the text. I am not sure if that is a typo.

Also I thought we had agreed to put a damage wheel on it, so Druids could use it as a polymorph shape, or did I just dream that?

Was Jeff planning on numbering the skulls? If so, that would explain the XXX as a placeholder for the numbers.

Yep. Numbered like the RoSP. I assume due to using a similar voucher system.