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TOPIC: SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images

SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #109

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I was not being intentionally misleading, I did not recall the journey the Cleric UR took. I'm not sure I paid that much attention to it before it became the Ring, I'm not sure what the powers were in the earlier versions, and I'm not sure what caused it to change. I do think that when Jeff created the Ring he had it in mind for both classes, regardless of previous iterations of the Cleric UR.

The one thing that is still puzzling to me is why the Ring of Expertise is just Wizard & Bard. It seems like based on Crown of Expertise precedence that it would have been all the spellcasting classes. Maybe change Ring of Expertise to a basic reprint of Crown of Expertise and make it all classes again?


I would assume it is the healing that keeps Clerics and Druids away.

Bards don't get a heal spell until 2nd level.


Possibly, but it could easily be changed to specify non-healing spells only.
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #110

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Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote: Here are my thoughts on a few specific things in the last round of the URs:

Death Knight Armor: This is an interesting addition. I like the suggestion to combine it with the boots and gloves to make a more offensive set option.

Mad Evoker's Charm: Waiting on a clarification post for this one.

Ring of Expertise: Seems very solid. Would still not mind seeing it opened to all casters but make it only function for non-healing spells.

Ring of Quick Blessing: I would still prefer seeing the "5/game" clause removed and put a "non-damage" restriction on it. If that happens I think opening it to all casters could be a good option. If that is undesirable I would suggest replacing "(5/game)" with "(Druid 1/rm)".

The free action spell economy between Ring of Quick Blessing and Mad Evoker's Charm feels off to me. The ring's ability to be used on multiple damage spells per round likely offsets any damage bonus from the MEC and does not come with channeling HP to do so. I am not asking for a "once per room" restriction to come back for Clerics though. Since Spiritual Hammer is a sliding spell the use of it would restrict the Cleric which I view to restrict its usefulness as a Free Action.


I think if Ring of Quick Blessing were changed to non-Damage that would make it a nearly worthless ring for Druids. Getting two 1st Level spells as a free action that you have to mark off (which is what "non-damage" would result in for all Druids not equipping a Charm of Spell Swapping since there are only two non-damage 1st level spells) is in no way worthy of a UR Ring. Compare that with the UR Ring of Spell Storing, it gives you any level of spell on your spell card, without marking it off, as a Free Action.

It already seems like more of a Ring of Quick Casting, not a Ring of Quick Blessing. Druids were added later in the development cycle to what was originally just meant to be the Cleric Epic starter. I was personally surprised damage spells were left on at all, given the name.


I don't think that's correct, I think Druids were on it from the very start. They were on it in the first version of the Ring on the Lords and Ladies forum that I saw. They certainly weren't added to it late in the development cycle. From what I saw Jeff always intended this as a Ring for the Druid and Cleric.


False.

Round 1 L&L - Holy Symbol. Cleric only
Round 2 L&L - Holy Symbol. Cleric only
Round 1 public - Neck. Cleric only
Round 2 public - Charm. Cleric only


But they were on the first of the Ring though, right?


You are both technically correct as well as being intentionally misleading. You've purposely worded it as if the UR at the start of the Cleric transmute was always a Ring intended for Clerics and Druids. It was not always a Ring. Nor was it always intended for both classes.


I was not being intentionally misleading, I did not recall the journey the Cleric UR took. I'm not sure I paid that much attention to it before it became the Ring, I'm not sure what the powers were in the earlier versions, and I'm not sure what caused it to change. I do think that when Jeff created the Ring he had it in mind for both classes, regardless of previous iterations of the Cleric UR.

The one thing that is still puzzling to me is why the Ring of Expertise is just Wizard & Bard. It seems like based on Crown of Expertise precedence that it would have been all the spellcasting classes. Maybe change Ring of Expertise to a basic reprint of Crown of Expertise and make it all classes again?

The ring of expertise was meant as a functional replacement for the (Wizard only) Staff of Power +2. Since that largey was used to cast Alertness as a scroll and effectively slotless (because weapon swapping), Jeff upped the power when he moved it, first to Charm and then later to Ring.

Truth told, it likely would have been far easier all around to have just done a direct reprint of the Staff. Adding Bards to it was just to expand the usability and give the Bards something cool in the URs this year, best I can tell.
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #111

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: I'm very in favor of going with a keyword on this. Mechanics that must be looked up in the tokendb are probably preferable to mechanics that are confusing and need to be heavily clarified in the tokendb anyway.


For the UR, if we can fit all text on the token I think that's best. Why make people go to TokenDB.Com to read what it does if the token itself can say it? Most people playing True Dungeon have probably never gone to TokenDB.Com.

I agree that it is best to get the full rules printed on the token when possible. With the lateness of the hour and the deadline approaching AND some general confusion over the current wording with no clear full write up yet...
I'd rather force people to tokendb ahead of time than explaining tokens to players in the middle of combat. Last year for example, I was getting a lot of blank confused stares when telling players they had to turn their wands in now because the rules had changed. "But it says (1/room) on the token!" etc.
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #112

Since this thread isn't locked yet...

Should Axe of the Dwarvish Kings say:

"Dwarf Fighter gains +2 to hit in melee"

?

I assume this token doesn't grant a ranged hit bonus.
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #113

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote: Here are my thoughts on a few specific things in the last round of the URs:

Death Knight Armor: This is an interesting addition. I like the suggestion to combine it with the boots and gloves to make a more offensive set option.

Mad Evoker's Charm: Waiting on a clarification post for this one.

Ring of Expertise: Seems very solid. Would still not mind seeing it opened to all casters but make it only function for non-healing spells.

Ring of Quick Blessing: I would still prefer seeing the "5/game" clause removed and put a "non-damage" restriction on it. If that happens I think opening it to all casters could be a good option. If that is undesirable I would suggest replacing "(5/game)" with "(Druid 1/rm)".

The free action spell economy between Ring of Quick Blessing and Mad Evoker's Charm feels off to me. The ring's ability to be used on multiple damage spells per round likely offsets any damage bonus from the MEC and does not come with channeling HP to do so. I am not asking for a "once per room" restriction to come back for Clerics though. Since Spiritual Hammer is a sliding spell the use of it would restrict the Cleric which I view to restrict its usefulness as a Free Action.


I think if Ring of Quick Blessing were changed to non-Damage that would make it a nearly worthless ring for Druids. Getting two 1st Level spells as a free action that you have to mark off (which is what "non-damage" would result in for all Druids not equipping a Charm of Spell Swapping since there are only two non-damage 1st level spells) is in no way worthy of a UR Ring. Compare that with the UR Ring of Spell Storing, it gives you any level of spell on your spell card, without marking it off, as a Free Action.

It already seems like more of a Ring of Quick Casting, not a Ring of Quick Blessing. Druids were added later in the development cycle to what was originally just meant to be the Cleric Epic starter. I was personally surprised damage spells were left on at all, given the name.


I don't think that's correct, I think Druids were on it from the very start. They were on it in the first version of the Ring on the Lords and Ladies forum that I saw. They certainly weren't added to it late in the development cycle. From what I saw Jeff always intended this as a Ring for the Druid and Cleric.


False.

Round 1 L&L - Holy Symbol. Cleric only
Round 2 L&L - Holy Symbol. Cleric only
Round 1 public - Neck. Cleric only
Round 2 public - Charm. Cleric only


But they were on the first of the Ring though, right?


You are both technically correct as well as being intentionally misleading. You've purposely worded it as if the UR at the start of the Cleric transmute was always a Ring intended for Clerics and Druids. It was not always a Ring. Nor was it always intended for both classes.


I was not being intentionally misleading, I did not recall the journey the Cleric UR took. I'm not sure I paid that much attention to it before it became the Ring, I'm not sure what the powers were in the earlier versions, and I'm not sure what caused it to change. I do think that when Jeff created the Ring he had it in mind for both classes, regardless of previous iterations of the Cleric UR.

The one thing that is still puzzling to me is why the Ring of Expertise is just Wizard & Bard. It seems like based on Crown of Expertise precedence that it would have been all the spellcasting classes. Maybe change Ring of Expertise to a basic reprint of Crown of Expertise and make it all classes again?


I don't intend to prolong this debate, but I feel there are a couple things missing from this line of discussion that were important enough I wanted to mention them:
  1. I personally view the Ring of Quick Blessing to be a defensive/support token where the Ring of Expertise was for offense. I advocated for all casters to have access to both with caveats added to wording to help prevent abuse.
  2. Now that we're seeing how the MEC and Wizard legendary are shaping up it has significantly changed how Wizards can access free action spells. I brought this back up in case in the chaos this token was missed. If Jeff leaves it as-is I will not question it and I will enjoy using it immensely.
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #114

Since we are almost two hours beyond the feedback deadline, chances that we are prolonging debate are slim.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #115

I think the continued discussion on rings may only lead to classes not getting nice things.
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #116

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I was not being intentionally misleading, I did not recall the journey the Cleric UR took. I'm not sure I paid that much attention to it before it became the Ring, I'm not sure what the powers were in the earlier versions, and I'm not sure what caused it to change. I do think that when Jeff created the Ring he had it in mind for both classes, regardless of previous iterations of the Cleric UR.

The one thing that is still puzzling to me is why the Ring of Expertise is just Wizard & Bard. It seems like based on Crown of Expertise precedence that it would have been all the spellcasting classes. Maybe change Ring of Expertise to a basic reprint of Crown of Expertise and make it all classes again?


I would assume it is the healing that keeps Clerics and Druids away.

Bards don't get a heal spell until 2nd level.


Possibly, but it could easily be changed to specify non-healing spells only.

I would support that, if, in concert, we also changed RoQB to non-damage and went back to the older usage power.

If not, why restrict one without the other?
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #117

Also, since this thread isn't locked yet:

Should Cranston's Helpful Hat's Eyes slot effect be worded;

You may equip 1 additional Eyes slot item

or

You may equip up to 2 Eyes slot items

E.g. will this token stack with any future Eye slot expanders.
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #118

Since this thread isn't locked yet...

Should Ring of the Siren grant the ability to read scrolls and use wands while Polymorphed?
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #119

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote: Here are my thoughts on a few specific things in the last round of the URs:

Death Knight Armor: This is an interesting addition. I like the suggestion to combine it with the boots and gloves to make a more offensive set option.

Mad Evoker's Charm: Waiting on a clarification post for this one.

Ring of Expertise: Seems very solid. Would still not mind seeing it opened to all casters but make it only function for non-healing spells.

Ring of Quick Blessing: I would still prefer seeing the "5/game" clause removed and put a "non-damage" restriction on it. If that happens I think opening it to all casters could be a good option. If that is undesirable I would suggest replacing "(5/game)" with "(Druid 1/rm)".

The free action spell economy between Ring of Quick Blessing and Mad Evoker's Charm feels off to me. The ring's ability to be used on multiple damage spells per round likely offsets any damage bonus from the MEC and does not come with channeling HP to do so. I am not asking for a "once per room" restriction to come back for Clerics though. Since Spiritual Hammer is a sliding spell the use of it would restrict the Cleric which I view to restrict its usefulness as a Free Action.


I think if Ring of Quick Blessing were changed to non-Damage that would make it a nearly worthless ring for Druids. Getting two 1st Level spells as a free action that you have to mark off (which is what "non-damage" would result in for all Druids not equipping a Charm of Spell Swapping since there are only two non-damage 1st level spells) is in no way worthy of a UR Ring. Compare that with the UR Ring of Spell Storing, it gives you any level of spell on your spell card, without marking it off, as a Free Action.

It already seems like more of a Ring of Quick Casting, not a Ring of Quick Blessing. Druids were added later in the development cycle to what was originally just meant to be the Cleric Epic starter. I was personally surprised damage spells were left on at all, given the name.


I don't think that's correct, I think Druids were on it from the very start. They were on it in the first version of the Ring on the Lords and Ladies forum that I saw. They certainly weren't added to it late in the development cycle. From what I saw Jeff always intended this as a Ring for the Druid and Cleric.


False.

Round 1 L&L - Holy Symbol. Cleric only
Round 2 L&L - Holy Symbol. Cleric only
Round 1 public - Neck. Cleric only
Round 2 public - Charm. Cleric only


But they were on the first of the Ring though, right?


You are both technically correct as well as being intentionally misleading. You've purposely worded it as if the UR at the start of the Cleric transmute was always a Ring intended for Clerics and Druids. It was not always a Ring. Nor was it always intended for both classes.


I was not being intentionally misleading, I did not recall the journey the Cleric UR took. I'm not sure I paid that much attention to it before it became the Ring, I'm not sure what the powers were in the earlier versions, and I'm not sure what caused it to change. I do think that when Jeff created the Ring he had it in mind for both classes, regardless of previous iterations of the Cleric UR.

The one thing that is still puzzling to me is why the Ring of Expertise is just Wizard & Bard. It seems like based on Crown of Expertise precedence that it would have been all the spellcasting classes. Maybe change Ring of Expertise to a basic reprint of Crown of Expertise and make it all classes again?

The ring of expertise was meant as a functional replacement for the (Wizard only) Staff of Power +2. Since that largey was used to cast Alertness as a scroll and effectively slotless (because weapon swapping), Jeff upped the power when he moved it, first to Charm and then later to Ring.

Truth told, it likely would have been far easier all around to have just done a direct reprint of the Staff. Adding Bards to it was just to expand the usability and give the Bards something cool in the URs this year, best I can tell.


We are in total agreement, a direct reprint of Staff of Power would have been greatly preferable. It would have been great to let newer Wizards have a shot at getting that. I'd be totally in favor of just dropping Ring of Expertise and reprinting +2 Staff of Power. And maybe printing Ring of Expertise for all classes down the road.
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SUPER Final Ultra Rare Images <Last Chance! 9 months 2 weeks ago #120

Harlax wrote: Since we are almost two hours beyond the feedback deadline, chances that we are prolonging debate are slim.


We are definitely prolonging debate, it is just slim chances that it will affect anything. :)
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