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TOPIC: Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion

Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #253

Dave wrote: Hoping we can all work this out. I'm certainly trying to listen (read) and self-evaluate changes I can make. I don't play this game for mechanics or token value, I play it because of caring/friendly TD staff and the cool people I meet playing. That's what really makes this fun and what I hope people focus upon. Rules to games change all the time. I'm sure we all want them to change for the best.

One recommendation I am making. No matter how we pay for MEC, Mage Ability or Arch Mage Ability, we should remove any mechanic that allows a player to go to 0 hp on their own. Gamers are always looking for loopholes. We found one and it may have gotten out of hand. Close the loophole and we'll just move on. It's what we do. Everyone have a great rest of the weekend.


Completely honest question. Why should this not be allowed? Should that not be my choice when triggering the token as to what I am willing to sacrifice for the group win?

I'm not seeing a loophole to exploit?
Last edit: by Arcanist Kolixela.
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #254

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: [
Did I suggest leaving the game? Or just changing from Wizard to another class and having a conversation in coaching with pick up groups? Now, I honestly don’t remember and I will admit I was much more heated in my opening post with the strongest reaction to these proposals. That being said, even though I am not as heated now, I still have strong opposition to 3 tokens being made in one year for our (myself and my partner’s) preferred classes that causes people to describe it on the forums and in the dungeon as “cutting myself” and “killing myself”. As Mike also pointed out was similar to the experience he had with it on the forums.


I'm cutting out a lot of the quote because it was getting really long and wasn't overly relevant to what I wanted to say.

It almost feels like a lot more of the problem here is related to the culture that's built up on the forums around MEC than the tokens themselves. I can absolutely see how talk of cutting, self mutilation, etc could be triggering or harmful to some people, and that's something that should be addressed. At the same time, none of that is really built into the tokens themselves. The MEC doesn't say anything about blood magic, mutilation, killing oneself, etc. It trades HP, which is a measure of not just health but also energy, luck, endurance, stamina, etc, for extra power. The token creator, who would have the best insight into the purpose and flavor of the tokens, has stated that they aren't meant as cutting but instead representing mortals pushing themselves beyond their limits to channel power greater than they can really handle, and leaving themselves weakened/vulnerable as a result. The tokens themselves aren't about cutting or suicide in any way.

I wonder if this is something that can/should be addressed more within forum culture and moderation rather than through changing a mechanic. It sounds like the problem isn't so much making one number go down to make another go up as it is the jokes you see on the forums and may encounter in the dungeon.


I think that, for the most part, if someone is referencing the Mad Evoker's charm in a way that causes another player issue it's fairly likely that they would change if asked it.

I don't know if it's right to ask forum moderators to violate free speech first amendment rights to police the speech of players on the forum in relation to how they choose to play the game.

Asking someone to refrain from using speech that might inadvertently trigger a negative response when you are together for two hours and have paid to be there is a much different ask than asking everyone to refrain from using speech in a public forum that you do not have to participate in, have not paid money to be there and is not actually related to speaking about self harm of your actual person but how you play a character. I don't feel those two things are equivalent.


The first amendment rights are that the government shall not impose your free speech (unless your speech violates the rights of others, see: “Fire” in a crowded theater). It does not prevent a private business from moderating language they seem harmful to their private community. And it does not mean people are allowed to say anything they want without any social/financial repercussions at all (see: libel is punishable by law and boycotts of business for their states beliefs are allowed).
I play Wizard.
The topic has been locked.

Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #255

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: [
Did I suggest leaving the game? Or just changing from Wizard to another class and having a conversation in coaching with pick up groups? Now, I honestly don’t remember and I will admit I was much more heated in my opening post with the strongest reaction to these proposals. That being said, even though I am not as heated now, I still have strong opposition to 3 tokens being made in one year for our (myself and my partner’s) preferred classes that causes people to describe it on the forums and in the dungeon as “cutting myself” and “killing myself”. As Mike also pointed out was similar to the experience he had with it on the forums.


I'm cutting out a lot of the quote because it was getting really long and wasn't overly relevant to what I wanted to say.

It almost feels like a lot more of the problem here is related to the culture that's built up on the forums around MEC than the tokens themselves. I can absolutely see how talk of cutting, self mutilation, etc could be triggering or harmful to some people, and that's something that should be addressed. At the same time, none of that is really built into the tokens themselves. The MEC doesn't say anything about blood magic, mutilation, killing oneself, etc. It trades HP, which is a measure of not just health but also energy, luck, endurance, stamina, etc, for extra power. The token creator, who would have the best insight into the purpose and flavor of the tokens, has stated that they aren't meant as cutting but instead representing mortals pushing themselves beyond their limits to channel power greater than they can really handle, and leaving themselves weakened/vulnerable as a result. The tokens themselves aren't about cutting or suicide in any way.

I wonder if this is something that can/should be addressed more within forum culture and moderation rather than through changing a mechanic. It sounds like the problem isn't so much making one number go down to make another go up as it is the jokes you see on the forums and may encounter in the dungeon.


I think that, for the most part, if someone is referencing the Mad Evoker's charm in a way that causes another player issue it's fairly likely that they would change if asked it.

I don't know if it's right to ask forum moderators to violate free speech first amendment rights to police the speech of players on the forum in relation to how they choose to play the game.

Asking someone to refrain from using speech that might inadvertently trigger a negative response when you are together for two hours and have paid to be there is a much different ask than asking everyone to refrain from using speech in a public forum that you do not have to participate in, have not paid money to be there and is not actually related to speaking about self harm of your actual person but how you play a character. I don't feel those two things are equivalent.


The first amendment rights are that the government shall not impose your free speech (unless your speech violates the rights of others, see: “Fire” in a crowded theater). It does not prevent a private business from moderating language they seem harmful to their private community. And it does not mean people are allowed to say anything they want without any social/financial repercussions at all (see: libel is punishable by law and boycotts of business for their states beliefs are allowed).


Jeff seems to have made his points on the token and its powering fairly clear.

If you and your group are on a run with me, I'll honor your request,likely by choosing another class.

It would seem the easiest way to prevent this from happening would be for you and another to choose wizard and elf, and make certain it never happens.

If this is the most important thing to you, that's my solution. You choose which is most important.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #256

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: Hoping we can all work this out. I'm certainly trying to listen (read) and self-evaluate changes I can make. I don't play this game for mechanics or token value, I play it because of caring/friendly TD staff and the cool people I meet playing. That's what really makes this fun and what I hope people focus upon. Rules to games change all the time. I'm sure we all want them to change for the best.

One recommendation I am making. No matter how we pay for MEC, Mage Ability or Arch Mage Ability, we should remove any mechanic that allows a player to go to 0 hp on their own. Gamers are always looking for loopholes. We found one and it may have gotten out of hand. Close the loophole and we'll just move on. It's what we do. Everyone have a great rest of the weekend.


Completely honest question. Why should this not be allowed? Should that not be my choice when triggering the token as to what I am willing to sacrifice for the group win?

I'm not seeing a loophole to exploit?


Technically, you are correct. It's not a loophole. But in most games, if you don't have the available resources, you're not able to execute the ability. In this case, if a player has 1 hp, they can still spend 10 hp for the effect.
The topic has been locked.

Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #257

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: Hoping we can all work this out. I'm certainly trying to listen (read) and self-evaluate changes I can make. I don't play this game for mechanics or token value, I play it because of caring/friendly TD staff and the cool people I meet playing. That's what really makes this fun and what I hope people focus upon. Rules to games change all the time. I'm sure we all want them to change for the best.

One recommendation I am making. No matter how we pay for MEC, Mage Ability or Arch Mage Ability, we should remove any mechanic that allows a player to go to 0 hp on their own. Gamers are always looking for loopholes. We found one and it may have gotten out of hand. Close the loophole and we'll just move on. It's what we do. Everyone have a great rest of the weekend.


Completely honest question. Why should this not be allowed? Should that not be my choice when triggering the token as to what I am willing to sacrifice for the group win?

I'm not seeing a loophole to exploit?


Doing this would also break other potential interactions around running out of HP (Paladin Sacrifice, Druegar's Death Die, Ash's Death Pouch)

I'd prefer that aspect of the token not be changed.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
The topic has been locked.

Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #258

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: Hoping we can all work this out. I'm certainly trying to listen (read) and self-evaluate changes I can make. I don't play this game for mechanics or token value, I play it because of caring/friendly TD staff and the cool people I meet playing. That's what really makes this fun and what I hope people focus upon. Rules to games change all the time. I'm sure we all want them to change for the best.

One recommendation I am making. No matter how we pay for MEC, Mage Ability or Arch Mage Ability, we should remove any mechanic that allows a player to go to 0 hp on their own. Gamers are always looking for loopholes. We found one and it may have gotten out of hand. Close the loophole and we'll just move on. It's what we do. Everyone have a great rest of the weekend.


Completely honest question. Why should this not be allowed? Should that not be my choice when triggering the token as to what I am willing to sacrifice for the group win?

I'm not seeing a loophole to exploit?


Technically, you are correct. It's not a loophole. But in most games, if you don't have the available resources, you're not able to execute the ability. In this case, if a player has 1 hp, they can still spend 10 hp for the effect.


They can not. Jeff has stated that plainly a few pages back.

You can spend to EXACTLY 0, not to any negative value.
The topic has been locked.

Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #259

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: [
Did I suggest leaving the game? Or just changing from Wizard to another class and having a conversation in coaching with pick up groups? Now, I honestly don’t remember and I will admit I was much more heated in my opening post with the strongest reaction to these proposals. That being said, even though I am not as heated now, I still have strong opposition to 3 tokens being made in one year for our (myself and my partner’s) preferred classes that causes people to describe it on the forums and in the dungeon as “cutting myself” and “killing myself”. As Mike also pointed out was similar to the experience he had with it on the forums.


I'm cutting out a lot of the quote because it was getting really long and wasn't overly relevant to what I wanted to say.

It almost feels like a lot more of the problem here is related to the culture that's built up on the forums around MEC than the tokens themselves. I can absolutely see how talk of cutting, self mutilation, etc could be triggering or harmful to some people, and that's something that should be addressed. At the same time, none of that is really built into the tokens themselves. The MEC doesn't say anything about blood magic, mutilation, killing oneself, etc. It trades HP, which is a measure of not just health but also energy, luck, endurance, stamina, etc, for extra power. The token creator, who would have the best insight into the purpose and flavor of the tokens, has stated that they aren't meant as cutting but instead representing mortals pushing themselves beyond their limits to channel power greater than they can really handle, and leaving themselves weakened/vulnerable as a result. The tokens themselves aren't about cutting or suicide in any way.

I wonder if this is something that can/should be addressed more within forum culture and moderation rather than through changing a mechanic. It sounds like the problem isn't so much making one number go down to make another go up as it is the jokes you see on the forums and may encounter in the dungeon.


I think that, for the most part, if someone is referencing the Mad Evoker's charm in a way that causes another player issue it's fairly likely that they would change if asked it.

I don't know if it's right to ask forum moderators to violate free speech first amendment rights to police the speech of players on the forum in relation to how they choose to play the game.

Asking someone to refrain from using speech that might inadvertently trigger a negative response when you are together for two hours and have paid to be there is a much different ask than asking everyone to refrain from using speech in a public forum that you do not have to participate in, have not paid money to be there and is not actually related to speaking about self harm of your actual person but how you play a character. I don't feel those two things are equivalent.


The first amendment rights are that the government shall not impose your free speech (unless your speech violates the rights of others, see: “Fire” in a crowded theater). It does not prevent a private business from moderating language they seem harmful to their private community. And it does not mean people are allowed to say anything they want without any social/financial repercussions at all (see: libel is punishable by law and boycotts of business for their states beliefs are allowed).


Ok valid. First Amendment was the wrong wording

But I see you avoided actually commenting on my thoughts. Do you disagree with my statements?
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #260

It’s too bad mage powers couldn’t work off a miscast table like in warhammer fantasy. Use a power and roll the D20. On a 1 (or any range chosen) roll the dice again and consult the miscast table. That way hilarity or doom could ensue. Choose to use powerful yet chaotic arcane powers and suffer the consequences.

You could then leave MEC alone
The topic has been locked.

Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #261

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: [
Did I suggest leaving the game? Or just changing from Wizard to another class and having a conversation in coaching with pick up groups? Now, I honestly don’t remember and I will admit I was much more heated in my opening post with the strongest reaction to these proposals. That being said, even though I am not as heated now, I still have strong opposition to 3 tokens being made in one year for our (myself and my partner’s) preferred classes that causes people to describe it on the forums and in the dungeon as “cutting myself” and “killing myself”. As Mike also pointed out was similar to the experience he had with it on the forums.


I'm cutting out a lot of the quote because it was getting really long and wasn't overly relevant to what I wanted to say.

It almost feels like a lot more of the problem here is related to the culture that's built up on the forums around MEC than the tokens themselves. I can absolutely see how talk of cutting, self mutilation, etc could be triggering or harmful to some people, and that's something that should be addressed. At the same time, none of that is really built into the tokens themselves. The MEC doesn't say anything about blood magic, mutilation, killing oneself, etc. It trades HP, which is a measure of not just health but also energy, luck, endurance, stamina, etc, for extra power. The token creator, who would have the best insight into the purpose and flavor of the tokens, has stated that they aren't meant as cutting but instead representing mortals pushing themselves beyond their limits to channel power greater than they can really handle, and leaving themselves weakened/vulnerable as a result. The tokens themselves aren't about cutting or suicide in any way.

I wonder if this is something that can/should be addressed more within forum culture and moderation rather than through changing a mechanic. It sounds like the problem isn't so much making one number go down to make another go up as it is the jokes you see on the forums and may encounter in the dungeon.


I think that, for the most part, if someone is referencing the Mad Evoker's charm in a way that causes another player issue it's fairly likely that they would change if asked it.

I don't know if it's right to ask forum moderators to violate free speech first amendment rights to police the speech of players on the forum in relation to how they choose to play the game.

Asking someone to refrain from using speech that might inadvertently trigger a negative response when you are together for two hours and have paid to be there is a much different ask than asking everyone to refrain from using speech in a public forum that you do not have to participate in, have not paid money to be there and is not actually related to speaking about self harm of your actual person but how you play a character. I don't feel those two things are equivalent.


The first amendment rights are that the government shall not impose your free speech (unless your speech violates the rights of others, see: “Fire” in a crowded theater). It does not prevent a private business from moderating language they seem harmful to their private community. And it does not mean people are allowed to say anything they want without any social/financial repercussions at all (see: libel is punishable by law and boycotts of business for their states beliefs are allowed).


Ok valid. First Amendment was the wrong wording

But I see you avoided actually commenting on my thoughts. Do you disagree with my statements?


I like to hope most people would change their language if asked in person during a game (in coaching or in the dungeon).

I think having forum moderators are a good thing, but I have a friend who regularly uses 4chan and 9chan, so I hear many stories of how things revolve without much moderation. And on other gaming forums I participate in (Heroclix being the biggest one, previously many various Star Wars games that have faded away), the moderators have no problem stopping people from going too far with language and have never had a problem. The biggest “incident” I remember was referring to rude players as “dicks” and referring to another game as “Yu-go-blow”, and that person had their post deleted and was given a warning. I thought that was perfectly reasonable for the moderators to do, but maybe if I were the mod I wouldn’t have been that heavy-handed.

I said my thoughts on first amendment.

I think that covers it all?
I play Wizard.
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #262

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I don't know if it's right to ask forum moderators to violate free speech first amendment rights to police the speech of players on the forum in relation to how they choose to play the game.

Asking someone to refrain from using speech that might inadvertently trigger a negative response when you are together for two hours and have paid to be there is a much different ask than asking everyone to refrain from using speech in a public forum that you do not have to participate in, have not paid money to be there and is not actually related to speaking about self harm of your actual person but how you play a character. I don't feel those two things are equivalent.

I like to hope most people would change their language if asked in person during a game (in coaching or in the dungeon).

I think having forum moderators are a good thing, but I have a friend who regularly uses 4chan and 9chan, so I hear many stories of how things revolve without much moderation. And on other gaming forums I participate in (Heroclix being the biggest one, previously many various Star Wars games that have faded away), the moderators have no problem stopping people from going too far with language and have never had a problem. The biggest “incident” I remember was referring to rude players as “dicks” and referring to another game as “Yu-go-blow”, and that person had their post deleted and was given a warning. I thought that was perfectly reasonable for the moderators to do, but maybe if I were the mod I wouldn’t have been that heavy-handed.

I said my thoughts on first amendment.

I think that covers it all?


Actually no, I've bolded the specific comment I made in relation to the forum posting. Specifically saying I didn't feel it was right to ask the TD community to not speak on the MEC token in ways that might be related to their own form of gameplay that may include aiming to have their character die in combat or otherwise cause harm to the character in a public forum because you may have a triggering reaction to reading them when you are in no way required to read those posts in the first place. Moreover it seems very bad to ask TD forum moderators to make judgement calls on what comments are allowed and what ones are not if the comments themselves are not derogatory in nature or attacking another forum member.
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #263

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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 7 months 1 week ago #264

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I don't know if it's right to ask forum moderators to violate free speech first amendment rights to police the speech of players on the forum in relation to how they choose to play the game.

Asking someone to refrain from using speech that might inadvertently trigger a negative response when you are together for two hours and have paid to be there is a much different ask than asking everyone to refrain from using speech in a public forum that you do not have to participate in, have not paid money to be there and is not actually related to speaking about self harm of your actual person but how you play a character. I don't feel those two things are equivalent.

I like to hope most people would change their language if asked in person during a game (in coaching or in the dungeon).

I think having forum moderators are a good thing, but I have a friend who regularly uses 4chan and 9chan, so I hear many stories of how things revolve without much moderation. And on other gaming forums I participate in (Heroclix being the biggest one, previously many various Star Wars games that have faded away), the moderators have no problem stopping people from going too far with language and have never had a problem. The biggest “incident” I remember was referring to rude players as “dicks” and referring to another game as “Yu-go-blow”, and that person had their post deleted and was given a warning. I thought that was perfectly reasonable for the moderators to do, but maybe if I were the mod I wouldn’t have been that heavy-handed.

I said my thoughts on first amendment.

I think that covers it all?


Actually no, I've bolded the specific comment I made in relation to the forum posting. Specifically saying I didn't feel it was right to ask the TD community to not speak on the MEC token in ways that might be related to their own form of gameplay that may include aiming to have their character die in combat or otherwise cause harm to the character in a public forum because you may have a triggering reaction to reading them when you are in no way required to read those posts in the first place. Moreover it seems very bad to ask TD forum moderators to make judgement calls on what comments are allowed and what ones are not if the comments themselves are not derogatory in nature or attacking another forum member.


I have literally never paid to be part of a forum. I specifically avoid one forum because it charges a fee to participate. I see no reason to expect a complete absence of moderation just because it is free or to expect no ability to discuss moderation because it is free. Every forum I have ever parricipated in had the ability to discuss the rules of moderation and was entirely free to participate in (and 100% optional to participate in, run by a private company, sometimes a third party company and sometimes a first party company).

I’m not really sure how it has nothing to do with self harm when people are directly using the phrase “cutting myself”, but maybe you are referencing something else and there is confusion on this last aspect of the conversation. That seems as related to self harm as it can get in the form of roleplaying.
I play Wizard.
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