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TOPIC: Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion
Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #241
Mike could you please try to advocate for druids and their class card instead of trying to nerf our abilities. Fall down......Go boom!
Adam Guay |
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #242
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My group has never used a MEC and I don't think we'll use this one either, so I don't have much personal experience with it, but I have heard on the forums a common expression for using the MEC is cutting yourself. I think this conversation probably has many second thinking that terminology. I'm glad that Jeff has expressed his thoughts on the subject and that it is a Wizard using his personal energy to power spells. I'm sure he is now or soon will be reading all of the comments on this thread in a very thoughtful and considerate manner, because that's the type of person Jeff is.
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #243
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First, I think everyone is free to comment on all of the tokens in the set. Second, in what way am I trying to nerf your abilities? Do you not think it is reasonable to take into consideration the fact that Jeff has said the spell damage on the Wizard character cards is going to double? I don't think I've advocated for a reduction in the power of these tokens in this entire thread. |
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #244
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I started playing in 2011, I definitely didn’t participate in token design in 2014. I didn’t personally have any experience in life with someone contemplating suicide or self-mutilation in 2014 anyways. When the Crazed Evoker’s was designed, I certainly missed it too. After having personal experience with it and learning more about professional inclusivity, my perspective on sensitive topics like that one changed (well after 2014). I was also much less confident in being willing to speak out about a hard topic like this at that time. Very few token erratas have ever happened and generally they have been minor, so I never considered the possibility of it getting errataed. Very few of these tokens were in circulation, so I chalked it up to “an out of print token could have been designed better, luckily it is out of print”. Now with the new printing, that gave reason to talk about it. Now with Jeff acknowledging MEC has to fundamentally change for gameplay reasons, it is particularly easy to add in changing it for social reasons as well. And now, I am more culturally aware to be observant and confident enough to speak out against things like this. So, it kind of just all culminated in the perfect combination of things coming together at the right time to facilitate this discussion now. I play Wizard.
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #245
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If a change to the game is made, with no functional reason for the change, that costs me hundreds of dollars in token value do to that change I'll likely walk away. That would indicate to me that the design team of the game has no care for the investment of it's players and would indicate to me that other changes make for non design reasons would always be at risk in the future that could also cost me hundreds of dollars in value and that's not a risk I would consider acceptable. I have no issue with Jeff changing the Mad Evoker's Charm for balancing reasons as long as that change still embraces the design of the token allowing additional damage at the cost of HP. Because my token choice as a Wizard is built #1 around spell damage and #2 around HP/Saving Throws as the three core stat values for my build. If HP is suddenly no longer a stat that provides me any benefit beyond the amount to survive one hit in combat it means that 3-10 tokens in my, and every other Mad Evoker Wizard's builds are no longer of value to me and no longer wanted in my build. It also means that the main source of buyers I would expect to have for that token, other Mad Evoker Wizards, would also not want the token and also be looking to sell their copies thus dropping the value for the token itself due to the laws of supply vs demand. So yes. If the Mad Evoker Charm is changed in such a way as to fundamentally change my entire class build design and class identity for a reason of potentially upsetting an extremely small minority of players who may be mentally triggered by ending up in a group with me when they could proactively avoid the entire situation but choose not to? I would have a very hard time trusting TD to not make other arbitrary changes that completely change my build and playstyle with no mechanical reason to do so and I would likely at that point cut my losses and leave the game. That's not meant as a threat by any means. It's ultimately Jeff's call. But as Anthony had been indicating that if his changes are not implemented he would be quitting the game I thought it wise to show that a change in either direction has a chance of losing the game players, but for very different reasons. |
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #246
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How can I avoid ever being in a party with you? I currently buy a portion of the tickets for a handful of runs each weekend I am able to play in TD. When I buy the ticket, I have no option to leave a footnote for other ticket buyers and I have no way to contact other token buyers who don’t post about it on the forums. I can email Jeff/Lori and ask them to email the other ticket holders on my behalf? I play Wizard.
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #247
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Did I suggest leaving the game? Or just changing from Wizard to another class and having a conversation in coaching with pick up groups? Now, I honestly don’t remember and I will admit I was much more heated in my opening post with the strongest reaction to these proposals. That being said, even though I am not as heated now, I still have strong opposition to 3 tokens being made in one year for our (myself and my partner’s) preferred classes that causes people to describe it on the forums and in the dungeon as “cutting myself” and “killing myself”. As Mike also pointed out was similar to the experience he had with it on the forums. I play Wizard.
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #248
I'm cutting out a lot of the quote because it was getting really long and wasn't overly relevant to what I wanted to say. It almost feels like a lot more of the problem here is related to the culture that's built up on the forums around MEC than the tokens themselves. I can absolutely see how talk of cutting, self mutilation, etc could be triggering or harmful to some people, and that's something that should be addressed. At the same time, none of that is really built into the tokens themselves. The MEC doesn't say anything about blood magic, mutilation, killing oneself, etc. It trades HP, which is a measure of not just health but also energy, luck, endurance, stamina, etc, for extra power. The token creator, who would have the best insight into the purpose and flavor of the tokens, has stated that they aren't meant as cutting but instead representing mortals pushing themselves beyond their limits to channel power greater than they can really handle, and leaving themselves weakened/vulnerable as a result. The tokens themselves aren't about cutting or suicide in any way. I wonder if this is something that can/should be addressed more within forum culture and moderation rather than through changing a mechanic. It sounds like the problem isn't so much making one number go down to make another go up as it is the jokes you see on the forums and may encounter in the dungeon. |
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #249
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Just gonna bump this thread back into the chat so we can perhaps find a balance without people just thrashing the card change Jamie
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #250
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Well #1 I generally completely buy out my runs and buy into pre-built runs for 90% of the runs I am on. So if you avoid buying into a run I am hosting or a run I have already bought into that would avoid about 90% of the chances of you ending up on a run with me. #2 If you DO end up on a run with me and you expressed concern about how the MEC/Relic/Legendary was referenced and asked me to avoid any self harm comments or jokes I would be completely OK with avoiding any referencing in that manner. I generally am very minimalistic in my speech in combat rooms as it is currently anyway and do not actively RP the use of the MEC or anything of that nature so a simple, polite request would avoid the issue. We have both been overly emotional in our responses and that's pushed into negative territory. I apologize for my words, I'm sure I was an asshole at a few points. I completely understand the reasoning behind your concerns with the MEC and it's related tokens and can see where it might be viewed in a negative light for some people and I completely support your requests to other players to avoid referencing it in a self harm manner. But I do not agree with the push to ban the token or change it's fundamental design due to a misinterpretation as to the intent of the token design. Additionally, as mentioned previously, the design of the MEC has caused any players using it to completely readjust their stat values to raise +HP and +Con bonuses to signifigantly higher levels than they would have done otherwise. For many players this includes paying a premium for Volunteer Specific +CON UR tokens over several different years and to the tune of at least $500 on average if they purchased all of the +Con UR volunteer tokens that have come around. A change to the Channeling ability of the Mad Evoker to remove the HP being used as the fueling of the power would fundamentally affect the design of the Mad Evoker Wizard best in slot token design in an extreme way. Doing so would cost the affected players a much larger sum of token value than any other token change in the game has due purely to the interaction between the MEC and +CON/HP tokens. Again I see where you are coming from and I understand your concerns. I simply ask that you understand where we are coming from and try to find an acceptable solution that does not result in numerous other players having to redesign their whole characters. I hope I've been civil in my response and I hope it gives you more understanding of the reasoning behind my responses thus far. And ultimately I hope that we can find a middle ground that makes you and your team feel safe while allowing me and my team to continue to play the game with the class design we've chosen to select. |
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #251
Hoping we can all work this out. I'm certainly trying to listen (read) and self-evaluate changes I can make. I don't play this game for mechanics or token value, I play it because of caring/friendly TD staff and the cool people I meet playing. That's what really makes this fun and what I hope people focus upon. Rules to games change all the time. I'm sure we all want them to change for the best.
One recommendation I am making. No matter how we pay for MEC, Mage Ability or Arch Mage Ability, we should remove any mechanic that allows a player to go to 0 hp on their own. Gamers are always looking for loopholes. We found one and it may have gotten out of hand. Close the loophole and we'll just move on. It's what we do. Everyone have a great rest of the weekend. |
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Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion 3 years 6 months ago #252
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I think that, for the most part, if someone is referencing the Mad Evoker's charm in a way that causes another player issue it's fairly likely that they would change if asked it. I don't know if it's right to ask forum moderators to violate free speech first amendment rights to police the speech of players on the forum in relation to how they choose to play the game. Asking someone to refrain from using speech that might inadvertently trigger a negative response when you are together for two hours and have paid to be there is a much different ask than asking everyone to refrain from using speech in a public forum that you do not have to participate in, have not paid money to be there and is not actually related to speaking about self harm of your actual person but how you play a character. I don't feel those two things are equivalent. |
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