TOPIC: Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

edwin wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Maybe another great way to “drain the wizard” is in coaching, Wizard can take minuses to AC and Saves to get used of Mage/Arch-Mage Power for the dungeon?

That option reduces the risk to the wizard so it should come with reduced rewards from it. Watered down mage/arch-mage powers.

That could be a suggested Mage Power alteration that was created in future years but it's against the core design of the MEC and would require retooling the token to implement.

No issue having it built as an option for players in the future tokens but let's leave the core design intact as it is.

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Maybe another great way to “drain the wizard” is in coaching, Wizard can take minuses to AC and Saves to get used of Mage/Arch-Mage Power for the dungeon?

That option reduces the risk to the wizard so it should come with reduced rewards from it. Watered down mage/arch-mage powers.

That could be a suggested Mage Power alteration that was created in future years but it's against the core design of the MEC and would require retooling the token to implement.

No issue having it built as an option for players in the future tokens but let's leave the core design intact as it is.

To me, the “core design” of MEC is a risk/penalty/cost to the Wizard in exchange for a reward. The “core design” doesn’t have to be considered “spend HP for DMG”, arguably the “core design” of “double base damage” is already being changed, so arguing you can’t change the core design is already an argument that has been thrown out the window. The core design is arguably already gone, now it is time for a new core design that is palatable (and maybe not socially sending the wrong message?)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

What stats are you putting before CON/HP?

As it is, I don’t play MEC and I put
#1: damage
#2: Dex
#3: con
#4: hp
#5: saves
#6: ac
#7: str
(int, wis, cha are not functionally useful or are in flux)

It actually seems like the new MEC isn't that different from the old MEC. The old MEC probably just didn't support the Character card changes. With current cards, the old MEC did an additional damage up to 20 for 10 HP, which is where the Relic/Legendary are now. If the MEC weren't modified, and the spell damage on the cards doubled, all of the sudden the MEC could do 40 bonus damage for the 10 HP.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the new MEC ability is even better than the old MEC, not worse. It's not nerfed, it's kind of super-charged. That is, if the "up to 14 HP" part is reusable and not once per room. If it's reusable, it can be on every spell, even multiple spells per turn. It also can do up to 14 bonus damage on each spell (28 for Relic/Legendary), where the old MEC only doubled the base + SK of the original spell, which on the old cards maxed out at 20 and could have been a lot lower. Plus, of course, once per combat, you can sacrifice unlimited HP for damage, and get it as free action.

Is that how everyone else reads this? Did the Wizards get a power boost and not a nerfing? If so, I'm not complaining if Jeff thinks that's necessary to get the Wizards to the power level he wants them at, I'm just making an observation.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

How do you feel about adding an alternative? Lose X HP OR mark off a Y level spell? Gives an option for those who don’t want to use HP for some reason , but doesn’t invalidate existing HP builds

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

How do you feel about adding an alternative? Lose X HP OR mark off a Y level spell? Gives an option for those who don’t want to use HP for some reason , but doesn’t invalidate existing HP builds

I could definitely get behind that.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

I see that. Though I still believe it is possible to come up with something that doesn't invalidate current HP boosting tokens but maintains a high risk / high reward style using an alternate resource. *IF that is a direction Jeff wants to go*

Maybe I should try to formalize the ideas rattling around in my brain and post them.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

The change to the Eldritch set bonus along with the change to LoDS is not too dissimilar to what you are describing with the HP boosting items. I know I purchased an Eldritch item on the secondary market for the set bonus (+10 to healing) only to have it changed and I am sure I am not the only one. I would recommend only making this level of radical change if there is a very compelling game reason.