TOPIC: Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks for all the great questions and feedback. I can see I need to sit down and write this thing up properly. I will do that tomorrow afternoon. I am going on very little sleep over this week, and I think I need a good night's sleep to do my best work. So...thanks for your patience!

BTW, here are the latest versions of the 3 tokens. More and better things tomorrow!

So, you can use the MEC ability for up to 14 points and still use other abilities each round, but if you use it for 15 or more you get FA and no other Mage Powers? I hope so, i like that restriction. Does the Restore Power ability allow any of them to be used a second time? It seems like it wouldn't since there is a hard rule of one each per combat.

The wording may need updated.

As currently designed the intention is that the UR can be used 1/room and have the FA power if it uses 15+HP

The relic can be used up to 3 times, once with each with the UR power and the 2 relic powers

The legendary can be used up to 5 times, once with each of the 5 existing Mage Powers.


Beyond that details are a bit hazy as we wait for Jeff to post some detailed information

I'm not sure, I think this is a variation on the earlier design of MEC, where if you used it you couldn't take another offensive action, but toned way down. Now, you can use it with the higher level abilities if you use it for less than 15 points, but not if you use it for 15 or more. And even if you use it for more than 15 points, you can still take other offensive actions, just not other Mage Powers.

If that is the correct interpretation, can you use other Mage Powers in a turn, and then use the MEC with Free Action ability, or do you lose the option of MEC with 15+ points of damage and FA in the room once you use another Mage Power?

Your last question was answered by Jeff back in page 6-8 somewhere I believe.

You can use each mage power once per room, the order doesn’t matter (e.g. the 15 point free action cast ability from the MeC doesn’t turn off subsequent uses of mage power).

So ... can you use the MEC ability as often as you want, as long as it's less than 14 points per time? I'm not really clear if the once per room is for using the MEC ability at all, or just the MEC Mage Power FA ability. I think it's using the MEC ability at all once per room, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Similarly, for the Relic & Legendary, can you do the MEC ability of 2 spell damage per HP lost as often as you want as long as it's 14 HP or less each time, or is that just once per room? I really hope it's just once per room, otherwise MEC was removed just to be replaced with an even more powerful MEC.

If it's once per room, maybe using the MEC ability at all should be the Mage Power to make it more clear, and you get an added Free Action if it's 15 points or more.

The way I read it the channel ability is separate from the "mage powers"
the Fast action mage power is 1/ room and by extension the other powers can only used once each per room.
So you may channel as many hit points as you like for as many spells as you have time to cast, but to activate a "mage power" you must have channeled at least 15 hp for that spell and you may only activate each one once per room.

Let's let Jeff sleep on it and get back to us.

kurtreznor wrote:

Picc wrote: My reading was that you could use it once per room for as many hps as you wanted to spend but that a minimum spend of 15 was required for the mage power to activate.

The original was unclear to me, but I was starting to lean/fear the intent was damage boost by paying life was 1/room. BUT with the newer post Jeff made, it seems clear that the intent is to allow spell damage boosting by paying life as often as the wizards wants, but you only get a mage power activation if you pay at least 15 HP.

Can you reference the post number where Jeff made the clarifying comment? Or I guess I can just scroll through the pages myself. The first post on the thread is pretty clear that MEC is once per room, regardless of whether FA is activated (Thanks, Edwin!).

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: per tokendb the only tokens in the game that provide any level of spell resistence boosts are the +2 Rod if Disjunction, printed in 2011 and never reprinted, and the Charm of the Cabal printed in 2013 and never reprinted.

the Rod of Disjunction allows Bard, Cleric, Druid or Wizard to lower a target's spell resistance by 10%, to a max of 30% on any successful MELEE hit.

The Charm of the Cabal automatically provides 10/15 or 20% spell resistance reduction based on the number of charms equipped in the party.

These are the only currently existing sources of Spell Resistance in the game.

Spell resistance sucks. I wholeheartedly agree. I hate the mechanic. In a long form tabletop game it isn't so bad, but in TD you have a much more constrained box to work in, so SR has a much bigger impact.

And if you think SR is bad as a Wizard to lose one of your spells, just think how it feels when you play a Cleric and lose one of your only two damage spells to it. There just went about 50% of your offensive magic contribution for the entire dungeon to no effect.

What if the Wizard power reduced Spell resistance for the entire party for that round? Then theoretically two Wizards working together could reduce it to 0% (at a cost).

Based on my reading that’s how I assumed it worked. And would require coordination between the wizards, Druids, and Cleric so that everybody had a chance that round.

Maybe another great way to “drain the wizard” is in coaching, Wizard can take minuses to AC and Saves to get used of Mage/Arch-Mage Power for the dungeon?

With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Maybe another great way to “drain the wizard” is in coaching, Wizard can take minuses to AC and Saves to get used of Mage/Arch-Mage Power for the dungeon?

That option reduces the risk to the wizard so it should come with reduced rewards from it. Watered down mage/arch-mage powers.

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

I would take it further with I hope the class card revisions for any class at any level does not make the class card more complicated or different between classes.

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

I honestly wish that we had gotten to see the rework of the cards before we got to the tokens.

I also think that a lot of the problem, if I've followed the thread correctly (and my goodness there are a lot of posts to keep up with lol) would be solved if the wizard class was offered another significant spell boost option that used another resource.

In the one version of these tokens I saw the option to break a wand to do big damage. Why not aim to make something like that an ultra rare in the future (just with significantly less damage than it was in the legendary talks).

That way people who like the MEC get to keep their HP as a resource token, while also opening up an alternative to get some damage boosts for people who are uncomfortable with the MEC.

Just spit-balling it as an idea for the future that may make both camps comfortable within a compromise.

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Picc wrote: My reading was that you could use it once per room for as many hps as you wanted to spend but that a minimum spend of 15 was required for the mage power to activate.

The original was unclear to me, but I was starting to lean/fear the intent was damage boost by paying life was 1/room. BUT with the newer post Jeff made, it seems clear that the intent is to allow spell damage boosting by paying life as often as the wizards wants, but you only get a mage power activation if you pay at least 15 HP.

Can you reference the post number where Jeff made the clarifying comment? Or I guess I can just scroll through the pages myself. The first post on the thread is pretty clear that MEC is once per room, regardless of whether FA is activated (Thanks, Edwin!).

In the original post, Jeff does mention MEC as 1/room, but it is unclear if that is referring to the free action part of the ability, or the whole thing (paying life included).

But when Jeff posted the updated token images (I don't know post #, but it was the only time he posted updated images of all 3 tokens), the new wording seemed very clear that the 1/room mage power was the free action part of MEC, and paying life to boost damage was always available...and in fact, was how the wizard activated the other mage powers as well.

kurtreznor wrote:

Picc wrote: My reading was that you could use it once per room for as many hps as you wanted to spend but that a minimum spend of 15 was required for the mage power to activate.

The original was unclear to me, but I was starting to lean/fear the intent was damage boost by paying life was 1/room. BUT with the newer post Jeff made, it seems clear that the intent is to allow spell damage boosting by paying life as often as the wizards wants, but you only get a mage power activation if you pay at least 15 HP.

This was also my read on it.