TOPIC: Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary

OrionW wrote: Jeff would prefer to fix the over all power level problem with the card based on the first post. Trust that the wizard cards are going to be significantly different.

With this in mind make the items fun and be sure to make the final item feel like a truly legendary item. Worry less about the damage and focus on fun mechanics. Don't worry so much about the total damage calculations just try to stay close to what a UR, Relic, and Legendary should be.

This seems like very sound advice from a Druid!

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Greg wrote: What if the progression just builds off of the MEC?

Relic: take 20 damage to deal triple base damage on any spell
legendary: take 30 damage to quadruple base damage on any spell

Play with the damage to self and multipliers to reach a sacrifice that balances with the desired damage output.

he wants to remove the Mad Evoker's Charm's design

But if the relic/legendary effect supersedes the MEC rather than interacting with it, doesn't that solve the concern Jeff expressed with the charm?

How about letting the wizard be even more of a gambler "mad" with Retributive Strike. It can be used at one of three levels, normal, mad, and insane. Caster must declare which level is being used before the roll.

Normal - Roll 20 100 damage to all creatures in room, roll 16-19 75 damage to all creatures in room, roll 11-15 50 damage to all creatures in room, 6-10 25 damage to all creatures in room, 2-5 no effect, 1 wizard takes 25 damage

Mad - Roll 20 150 damage to all creatures in room, roll 16-19 100 damage to all creatures in room, roll 11-15 75 damage to all creatures in room, 6-10 50 damage to all creatures in room, 2-5 wizard takes 25 damage, 1 wizard takes 50 damage

Insane - Roll 20 200 damage to all creatures in room, roll 16-19 150 damage to all creatures in room, roll 11-15 100 damage to all creatures in room, 6-10 wizard takes 25 damage, 2-5 wizard takes 50 damage, 1 wizard takes 100 damage, all members of party other than wizard take 25 damage.

The exact damage numbers could be adjusted. Just proposing this as an fun concept and for the wizard who wants to dial it to "11" and potentially earn the wrath of the party.

Greg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Greg wrote: What if the progression just builds off of the MEC?

Relic: take 20 damage to deal triple base damage on any spell
legendary: take 30 damage to quadruple base damage on any spell

Play with the damage to self and multipliers to reach a sacrifice that balances with the desired damage output.

he wants to remove the Mad Evoker's Charm's design

But if the relic/legendary effect supersedes the MEC rather than interacting with it, doesn't that solve the concern Jeff expressed with the charm?

His statement was that the Mad Evoker's Charm was problematic, not that integrating it with the Necklace is problematic. He wants to completely redesign the MEC and modify spells on the cards instead.

Manimal wrote: How about letting the wizard be even more of a gambler "mad" with Retributive Strike. It can be used at one of three levels, normal, mad, and insane. Caster must declare which level is being used before the roll.

Normal - Roll 20 100 damage to all creatures in room, roll 16-19 75 damage to all creatures in room, roll 11-15 50 damage to all creatures in room, 6-10 25 damage to all creatures in room, 2-5 no effect, 1 wizard takes 25 damage

Mad - Roll 20 150 damage to all creatures in room, roll 16-19 100 damage to all creatures in room, roll 11-15 75 damage to all creatures in room, 6-10 50 damage to all creatures in room, 2-5 wizard takes 25 damage, 1 wizard takes 50 damage

Insane - Roll 20 200 damage to all creatures in room, roll 16-19 150 damage to all creatures in room, roll 11-15 100 damage to all creatures in room, 6-10 wizard takes 25 damage, 2-5 wizard takes 50 damage, 1 wizard takes 100 damage, all members of party other than wizard take 25 damage.

The exact damage numbers could be adjusted. Just proposing this as an fun concept and for the wizard who wants to dial it to "11" and potentially earn the wrath of the party.

I would want our 1/game ability to have the damage capability of some of the other existing 1/game abilities. Like the ability to trigger an auto crit on a 3x crit weapon that comes in 275+ damage.

I'd also prefer it not consume a wand and prefer it not have the ability to be so weak it's worse that casting a normal spell based on random chance.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote: I prefer to table it as long as it takes instead of having a token issued and hashed out after the fact.

Otherwise people are going to complain they did not know ahead of time and now they are stuck with this token.

Nothing is getting issued until Preorders start or tokens arrive, depending on your perspective.

If we’re still debating this then we will truly be turning Jeff into a mad evoker.

This proposal is just to give us some breathing room to avoid having to figure this out before the printing schedule for 2021 tokens.

I believe from what Jeff said the deadline for tokens to print is like Monday?

That to me says we should bite the bullet and push the wizard out a year. Do a full review from the ground up. If we are like 4 days out and talking a full redesign of both the wizard legendary, and the wizards most iconic item, that just last year was declared perfectly fair by TPTB. We will be rushing and will miss something.

Picc wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote: I prefer to table it as long as it takes instead of having a token issued and hashed out after the fact.

Otherwise people are going to complain they did not know ahead of time and now they are stuck with this token.

Nothing is getting issued until Preorders start or tokens arrive, depending on your perspective.

If we’re still debating this then we will truly be turning Jeff into a mad evoker.

This proposal is just to give us some breathing room to avoid having to figure this out before the printing schedule for 2021 tokens.

I believe from what Jeff said the deadline for tokens to print is like Monday?

That to me says we should bite the bullet and push the wizard out a year. Do a full review from the ground up. If we are like 4 days out and talking a full redesign of both the wizard legendary, and the wizards most iconic item, that just last year was declared perfectly fair by TPTB. We will be rushing and will miss something.

Leaving Wizards to be the only class without a class legendary and leaving Wizards with 2 possible wanted UR tokens this year, neither of which are usable in the UR build. And giving the other spellcasting class the ability to ramp another 200 damage over a dungeon via FA spells.

If you want Wizards to leave the game in droves that's the way to do it.

Ok, I feel the need to state this since a lot of discussion revolves around casting as a free action:

Your hands must be empty to cast. (Exception is focus items/weapons specifically designed to allow casting)

It takes a free action to empty your hands.

Free action spells are NOT as versatile as many are assuming. You CANNOT use a wand and cast as a free action.
You can use a scroll or throwing weapon then cast as a free action, BUT your hands are now empty and next round you will need to use your free action to put something in your hands. OR you will only be able to cast with no focus weapon bonus.
You can attack with a weapon and cast as free action ONLY IF that weapon is a focus weapon (or otherwise usable for casting).


Main point here is, unless the MEC or relic/legendary specifically allow something else, repeated free action casting mostly only allows double casting or melee attack plus casting and nothing else.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Picc wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote: I prefer to table it as long as it takes instead of having a token issued and hashed out after the fact.

Otherwise people are going to complain they did not know ahead of time and now they are stuck with this token.

Nothing is getting issued until Preorders start or tokens arrive, depending on your perspective.

If we’re still debating this then we will truly be turning Jeff into a mad evoker.

This proposal is just to give us some breathing room to avoid having to figure this out before the printing schedule for 2021 tokens.

I believe from what Jeff said the deadline for tokens to print is like Monday?

That to me says we should bite the bullet and push the wizard out a year. Do a full review from the ground up. If we are like 4 days out and talking a full redesign of both the wizard legendary, and the wizards most iconic item, that just last year was declared perfectly fair by TPTB. We will be rushing and will miss something.

Leaving Wizards to be the only class without a class legendary and leaving Wizards with 2 possible wanted UR tokens this year, neither of which are usable in the UR build. And giving the other spellcasting class the ability to ramp another 200 damage over a dungeon via FA spells.

If you want Wizards to leave the game in droves that's the way to do it.

Is it better then recalling the MC & rushing the legendary (honest quest)?

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't change the MEC!!!

I don't even care about this new Relic and Legendary any more. But please don't ruin my favorite token in the game.

PLEASE LEAVE THE MEC AS IS. PLEASE.

These two MEC ideas:

Jeff (OP): May cast 1st-2nd level spell as a free action but no another offensive action for combat

Arcanist (post #52): 10 HP - Duplicate a spell just cast as a free action

both seem to play in the same space, incurring a penalty and using FA to produce an extra damage spell with full bonuses.

The important differences seem to be:
* eligible spell levels: 1-2 vs any
* consumes checkbox: yes vs no
* frequency: 1/combat vs 1/round (since it uses your FA)
* penalty: chance of thumb-twiddling vs 10 damage to self

Jeff knows which aspects are most important to him.

Which are most important to UR+ Wizards who own a MEC? (for the UR level, as a replacement/nerf)

(Edit: for contrast, current MEC on these same metrics is level:any, checkbox:no, 1/round, and penalty:10hp, but it does NOT include bonuses, and it also doesn't use up your FA)

Picc wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Picc wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote: I prefer to table it as long as it takes instead of having a token issued and hashed out after the fact.

Otherwise people are going to complain they did not know ahead of time and now they are stuck with this token.

Nothing is getting issued until Preorders start or tokens arrive, depending on your perspective.

If we’re still debating this then we will truly be turning Jeff into a mad evoker.

This proposal is just to give us some breathing room to avoid having to figure this out before the printing schedule for 2021 tokens.

I believe from what Jeff said the deadline for tokens to print is like Monday?

That to me says we should bite the bullet and push the wizard out a year. Do a full review from the ground up. If we are like 4 days out and talking a full redesign of both the wizard legendary, and the wizards most iconic item, that just last year was declared perfectly fair by TPTB. We will be rushing and will miss something.

Leaving Wizards to be the only class without a class legendary and leaving Wizards with 2 possible wanted UR tokens this year, neither of which are usable in the UR build. And giving the other spellcasting class the ability to ramp another 200 damage over a dungeon via FA spells.

If you want Wizards to leave the game in droves that's the way to do it.

Is it better then recalling the MC & rushing the legendary (honest quest)?

Why not just rush the legendary. It's not like the Staff of Focus wasn't eclipsed by the Baton of Focus and never allowed to gain the polymorph damage required to at least be equal to the damage focused part of the token.

It's not like the change to the Mad Evoker's Charm doesn't invalidate a large part of the Starhide/Sunhide robe design. giving +Int that no longer serves any purpose.

It's not like the Mad Evoker's Charm hasn't been a large part of the class identity for years.

*sigh*

At the start of this design I was so happy. We were getting the spellbook, we were getting extra spells for grind and epic. We were getting the start of the ability to choose our own spells.

Literally every change the Wizards have seen since day 1 has weakened our item or completely changed it. While the Fighter and the Cleric are getting buffs to make their token exactly what they want. It feels shitty. It feels really shitty.