TOPIC: Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary

edwin wrote: Cleanest way is to pull MEC from UR mix and push it until things are settled.

What do we do about the Wizard Legendary then?

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: I say just scrap the wizard relic and legendary. We can revisit in another 7 years hahaha

There may be a shred of truth here. If we are time constrained, and want to do it right, would it be best to do design just on this for the next year and have it locked in before the next token cycle?

Downside is all the wizards have to wait a year for their relic and legendary. Plus side is, less chance of unforeseen issues

We've already given up our spellbook and our familiar. Now you want us to give up our CLASS NECKLACE?

Hard pass

Some people think giving us another year will resolve all of our differences. Ha!

From the opinions I am seeing this will not be resolved for 2021 nor will it be resolved for future sets.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote: Cleanest way is to pull MEC from UR mix and push it until things are settled.

What do we do about the Wizard Legendary then?

Table it until things get firmed up or resolved.

edwin wrote: I prefer to table it as long as it takes instead of having a token issued and hashed out after the fact.

Otherwise people are going to complain they did not know ahead of time and now they are stuck with this token.

Nothing is getting issued until Preorders start or tokens arrive, depending on your perspective.

If we’re still debating this then we will truly be turning Jeff into a mad evoker.

This proposal is just to give us some breathing room to avoid having to figure this out before the printing schedule for 2021 tokens.

Betting on the come is never a good decision.

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I have a general observation and a suggestion.

It feels like there is very tight time pressure; and it is important to get this right.

If the tokens need to go to the printer soon, just have the relic and legendary say:

Effects listed at tokendb.com/

That gives us time to hash this out without time pressure.

The 2022 token set could include a re-issue of these with updated text.

Also - it gives Trent something more to collect .

I do think it is good to have some time limit on this to focus us - but I think “this weekend” might be too much time pressure for all things to be given appropriate consideration.

MEC would also have to be done that way.

Not necessarily; making a final decision on the new MEC in time for this print run is less pressure than making a final decision on all three tokens in time for this print run.

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: As Incognito correctly pointed out 7 years ago, the MEC would come back to bite us in the behind. It has made Wizard Relic and Legendary design very difficult. I hate to do it, but I think it is time to nerf it.

So long as the old MEC is an ingredient for the Relic then most folks won't mind, and those who won't be making the Relic -- they can send it in for a free swap. The main issue as I see it (I could be wrong) is that we have a crazy matrix of all these different spell bonuses and extra spells possible that is compounded by the poorly designed MEC token.

So...let's start over from scratch and design all 3 tokens (MEC, Relic and Legendary) so that they all work together to give the Wizards some fun capabilities. I see Wizards as glass cannons. I want them to do the best damage in the game, but I want them to die the most of all the classes because of their weak AC and hp. With great damage comes the big drawback of you will probably die if you aren't careful or lucky.

So...give me your thoughts on how we can redo the MEC to coordinate with the Relic and Legendary (and all the crazy Cabal/Spell Storing/ etc. powers out there.

I appreciate your patience with me. I painted us into a design corner, and now we gotta break down a wall (nerfing MEC) to get to a good place. If it helps, I am open to redesigning the Wizards cards next week to increase spell damage there. It would be better to fix the game on the cards rather than with tokens. Let's assume spell damage is roughly doubled moving forward.

My idea:

MEC = May cast 1st-2nd level spell as a free action but no another offensive action for combat

Relic = May cast spell as a free action (1/room) & Skill Check adds +12 pts (not +6) to spell

Legendary = As Relic & SC adds +18 pts (not +6) to spell & Retributive Strike

Retributive Strike = may break any Rare Wand to cause a massive out-powering of magical energy. All monsters in the room take 100 pts of Force damage. The Wizard takes this same damage unless she rolls an 6-20 on a d20.

I haven't read through the comments yet, so maybe some of this is OBE.

First, a general comment - is spell damage doubling for all of the spell casting classes? I hope that is the case.

MEC: Is this saying that after the Wizard casts the free action spell they can't take another offensive action for the entire room? It seems like nobody is going to want to do that, since the Wizards don't have a lot of non-offensive actions (I know that could be read the wrong way).

Relic: That seems fine for a Relic level power.

Legendary: I could see allowing a second free action spell, and I really do like the Retributive strike ability. I think sacrificing a Wand is a very small price, as they can be bought for under $1.

Just checked TrentTokens and try $2-$3 for a good rare wand and up to $10 for some. They also won't stay at that price if this mechanic goes into effect.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Mad Evoker's Charm -

Take X Eldritch Damage - Deal 2X Eldritch Damage as bonus on your next spell cast

?

Now you're just making it easy for Dave....

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote: I prefer to table it as long as it takes instead of having a token issued and hashed out after the fact.

Otherwise people are going to complain they did not know ahead of time and now they are stuck with this token.

Nothing is getting issued until Preorders start or tokens arrive, depending on your perspective.

If we’re still debating this then we will truly be turning Jeff into a mad evoker.

This proposal is just to give us some breathing room to avoid having to figure this out before the printing schedule for 2021 tokens.

I believe from what Jeff said the deadline for tokens to print is like Monday?

NightGod wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Mad Evoker's Charm -

Take X Eldritch Damage - Deal 2X Eldritch Damage as bonus on your next spell cast

?

Now you're just making it easy for Dave....

As much as I like the concept, then it becomes a matter of how much hp can I start with. All kidding aside, this is feeling like a mad dash to the finish line. Something is going to get missed.

Jeff would prefer to fix the over all power level problem with the card based on the first post. Trust that the wizard cards are going to be significantly different.

With this in mind make the items fun and be sure to make the final item feel like a truly legendary item. Worry less about the damage and focus on fun mechanics. Don't worry so much about the total damage calculations just try to stay close to what a UR, Relic, and Legendary should be.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: I say just scrap the wizard relic and legendary. We can revisit in another 7 years hahaha

the real wizard legendary is the design discussions we had along the way