Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #49

Greg wrote: What if the progression just builds off of the MEC?

Relic: take 20 damage to deal triple base damage on any spell
legendary: take 30 damage to quadruple base damage on any spell

Play with the damage to self and multipliers to reach a sacrifice that balances with the desired damage output.


he wants to remove the Mad Evoker's Charm's design
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #50

Jeff Martin wrote: As Incognito correctly pointed out 7 years ago, the MEC would come back to bite us in the behind. It has made Wizard Relic and Legendary design very difficult. I hate to do it, but I think it is time to nerf it.

So long as the old MEC is an ingredient for the Relic then most folks won't mind, and those who won't be making the Relic -- they can send it in for a free swap. The main issue as I see it (I could be wrong) is that we have a crazy matrix of all these different spell bonuses and extra spells possible that is compounded by the poorly designed MEC token.

So...let's start over from scratch and design all 3 tokens (MEC, Relic and Legendary) so that they all work together to give the Wizards some fun capabilities. I see Wizards as glass cannons. I want them to do the best damage in the game, but I want them to die the most of all the classes because of their weak AC and hp. With great damage comes the big drawback of you will probably die if you aren't careful or lucky.

So...give me your thoughts on how we can redo the MEC to coordinate with the Relic and Legendary (and all the crazy Cabal/Spell Storing/ etc. powers out there.

I appreciate your patience with me. I painted us into a design corner, and now we gotta break down a wall (nerfing MEC) to get to a good place. If it helps, I am open to redesigning the Wizards cards next week to increase spell damage there. It would be better to fix the game on the cards rather than with tokens. Let's assume spell damage is roughly doubled moving forward.

My idea:

MEC = May cast 1st-2nd level spell as a free action but no another offensive action for combat

Relic = May cast spell as a free action (1/room) & Skill Check adds +12 pts (not +6) to spell

Legendary = As Relic & SC adds +18 pts (not +6) to spell & Retributive Strike

Retributive Strike = may break any Rare Wand to cause a massive out-powering of magical energy. All monsters in the room take 100 pts of Force damage. The Wizard takes this same damage unless she rolls an 6-20 on a d20.


I haven't read through the comments yet, so maybe some of this is OBE.

First, a general comment - is spell damage doubling for all of the spell casting classes? I hope that is the case.

MEC: Is this saying that after the Wizard casts the free action spell they can't take another offensive action for the entire room? It seems like nobody is going to want to do that, since the Wizards don't have a lot of non-offensive actions (I know that could be read the wrong way).

Relic: That seems fine for a Relic level power.

Legendary: I could see allowing a second free action spell, and I really do like the Retributive strike ability. I think sacrificing a Wand is a very small price, as they can be bought for under $1.
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #51

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, it would be good to have context around:

Jeff Martin wrote: I want them to do the best damage in the game


Is that assuming the Monks and Rangers stay as they are? Or assuming that the Monks and Rangers are reigned in somewhat as many have suggested in the past?


I would design around today not a theoretical future where Monks and Rangers don't riot for having their damage numbers nerfed
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #52

WIZARD players thoughts on making Mad Evoker's Charm read

10 HP - Duplicate a spell just cast as a free action

Keeps us from burning out spells too fast, keeps us fragile and allows us to compete with Rangers/Monks with dual pucks.
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #53

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, it would be good to have context around:

Jeff Martin wrote: I want them to do the best damage in the game


Is that assuming the Monks and Rangers stay as they are? Or assuming that the Monks and Rangers are reigned in somewhat as many have suggested in the past?


I would design around today not a theoretical future where Monks and Rangers don't riot for having their damage numbers nerfed


Yes please, I don't want to sell my collection to buy Wizard gear.
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #54

Jeff Martin wrote: As Incognito correctly pointed out 7 years ago, the MEC would come back to bite us in the behind. It has made Wizard Relic and Legendary design very difficult. I hate to do it, but I think it is time to nerf it.

So long as the old MEC is an ingredient for the Relic then most folks won't mind, and those who won't be making the Relic -- they can send it in for a free swap. The main issue as I see it (I could be wrong) is that we have a crazy matrix of all these different spell bonuses and extra spells possible that is compounded by the poorly designed MEC token.

So...let's start over from scratch and design all 3 tokens (MEC, Relic and Legendary) so that they all work together to give the Wizards some fun capabilities. I see Wizards as glass cannons. I want them to do the best damage in the game, but I want them to die the most of all the classes because of their weak AC and hp. With great damage comes the big drawback of you will probably die if you aren't careful or lucky.

So...give me your thoughts on how we can redo the MEC to coordinate with the Relic and Legendary (and all the crazy Cabal/Spell Storing/ etc. powers out there.

I appreciate your patience with me. I painted us into a design corner, and now we gotta break down a wall (nerfing MEC) to get to a good place. If it helps, I am open to redesigning the Wizards cards next week to increase spell damage there. It would be better to fix the game on the cards rather than with tokens. Let's assume spell damage is roughly doubled moving forward.


Assuming talking about both base and skill check and not just skill check, this sounds like overreaction. TD isn't just played at the "argument level". TD is played out of sealed packs a lot. When I played with no collection, I routinely had to murder monsters for the party due to the other classes not hitting where I always did my damage (of course, this burned me out of spells really fast). TD is played at rare levels, maybe even uncommon levels, got some UR levels, not legendary levels.

Yes, rare level wizard has a problem generating damage bonuses. This is much more a function of recent years piling on STR bonuses and melee damage bonuses to where others have gained while wizards would be pushed towards URs to build up spell damage.

Some damage push seems reasonable, but, unless the intent is to keep commons/uncommons/rares under control from a spell damage bonus standpoint while physical attackers have their plethora of bonuses, huge increases in spell damage seem like they would get out of line of weapon + dmg bonuses for those parties where players actually miss their slides. Again, rare level already looks like it has hit the point where to hit and damage bonuses have skyrocketed, so maybe I'm just imagining a different game than actually exists today.

MEC is bad design, I agree. It warps conversation because it's just assumed to be party of any wizard's build, which also means that Starhide (or Hat or Aron's) is assumed to be part of the wizard's build, which isn't terribly fair, either. But, trading hp for spell damage isn't specifically the issue as much as doubling is a terrible idea in games (where balance is a concern). Can just make it more like the Crazed Evoker's where trade like 5hp for +5 spell dmg and not completely rewrite what it does. Because, as we've seen, when change fundamentally how a token works, everyone has to spend a lot of effort recalibrating to understand the implications of the change.

My idea:

MEC = May cast 1st-2nd level spell as a free action but no another offensive action for combat


So, wait until combat is going badly or, alternatively, just stop playing for a while? This effect, which I think is too much of a departure from existing, would seem to make more sense as FA 0th/1st level spell [1/combat].

Relic = May cast spell as a free action (1/room) & Skill Check adds +12 pts (not +6) to spell

Legendary = As Relic & SC adds +18 pts (not +6) to spell & Retributive Strike

Retributive Strike = may break any Rare Wand to cause a massive out-powering of magical energy. All monsters in the room take 100 pts of Force damage. The Wizard takes this same damage unless she rolls an 6-20 on a d20.


I think you end up losing passionate types with relying entirely on skill checks for the damage increase. I've yet to understand how combat can usually last one round yet, at the same time, doing skill checks wastes too much time, but, apparently, it's a feature of someone's play that looks nothing like my play.

+6 for a skill check is already significant enough to incentivize doing them for some people while not being so large that everyone feels like they have to do them.

Instead of thinking about what I would want, since what I care most about is not important to most people, I was thinking about what I lose by relicing or legendarying. I lose Charm Necklace. While not the case, if we look forwards to when there will be tons of +2 dmg charms or even +3 dmg charms, I figured I would be losing the common currency of 6 dmg per spell. A relic that gives +6 to spells and something else puts ahead. Legendary at +more puts further ahead and whatever additional.

Retributive Strike is fine (conceptually). But, the single least fun thing about playing wizards is having spells nullified. I immediately lose interest in combat when my limited resource doesn't do anything, anymore. So, I'm hoping that a RS like effect cannot be countered in any way any more than gods can be. As for the wizard taking 100 damage 25% of the time, I don't know if it matters to me or not as it's on a legendary where really only Epic level play or possibly True Grind is impacted by these abilities.
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #55

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, it would be good to have context around:

Jeff Martin wrote: I want them to do the best damage in the game


Is that assuming the Monks and Rangers stay as they are? Or assuming that the Monks and Rangers are reigned in somewhat as many have suggested in the past?


I would design around today not a theoretical future where Monks and Rangers don't riot for having their damage numbers nerfed


And I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering what Jeff meant when he said it (or even just what he currently means if his mind has changed).
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #56

I posted this before. with the advent of MEC needing a change, perhaps this puts new light on it as it does create the glass cannon effect you mentioned...


First Mad Evoker must be part of the transmute

Second...the legendary provides a 2x damage multiplier...
If used, the wizard must roll a fortitude roll. A failed roll, requires a turn of rest...a “1” reduces the wizard’s HP to zero.

Now this stacks! Because of mad evoker and this pendant worn, the wizard now can cast a very high risk 4x damage attack and just like every game on the market, the wizard CAN influence the entire battle as they should but at a tremendous risk to self.
Jamie
AureliusBP

Ranger for Epic
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/b4b81c8d-c52e-4ffa-b291-a2eba22a6a8c

Ranger QUick and Dead
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/9f97836c-9066-455b-904a-eea17eadbbb9

CHECK OUT THE TOKENS FOR SALE
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=252721#397741

Ioun Stone Nuggets AVAILABLE

Am on Discord as AureliusBP if you want realtime chat.
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #57

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, it would be good to have context around:

Jeff Martin wrote: I want them to do the best damage in the game


Is that assuming the Monks and Rangers stay as they are? Or assuming that the Monks and Rangers are reigned in somewhat as many have suggested in the past?


I would design around today not a theoretical future where Monks and Rangers don't riot for having their damage numbers nerfed


If the game needs it I think some modest reduction in power is warranted. Healers went through this. Wizards are going through this with MEC. A change for game health around how double sliding classes may be in order. What I would say though is that this should not be based on VT. Sliding two pucks in real life is a lot harder.
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #58

Similar to some other comments, if you want the Wizards to be the top damage dealers, I think the Rangers and Monks do need to be modified so their damage bonus only applies to one attack. Their ability to add full damage modifiers to both attacks is throwing off the entire balance as other classes try to catch up to that.
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #59

Just an idea to throw into the ring for the legendary

Wand mastery
Wands are no longer consumed
Wands do x3 damage
Wands can be used as a free action
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
The topic has been locked.

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #60

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: WIZARD players thoughts on making Mad Evoker's Charm read

10 HP - Duplicate a spell just cast as a free action

Keeps us from burning out spells too fast, keeps us fragile and allows us to compete with Rangers/Monks with dual pucks.


It definitely does the last item in the list. I'm not sure about the first two. 10HP from both Wizards is 20HP of healing a round. That isn't tough for either a Cleric or Druid to keep up with depending on the number of HP max you have. Fragile would be to slap something like a 30HP max on top of that so that you HAVE to get healing every round to keep that up.
The topic has been locked.
Time to create page: 0.180 seconds