TOPIC: Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary

Daniel White wrote: I think we need to move from talking about "free" actions to talking about "swift" actions.

If we are talking about "free action" damage spells, there will be development problems again later on down the line.

A free action should be something on the level of drinking a potion. Something more powerful than that should be a "swift" action, with only one swift action usable per turn.

Otherwise, as more tokens are printed, we'll be running into a situation where:

1. No one wants more "action" tokens because it breaks the game; or
2. The free action sleaze starts to get really bad, with massive single-player free action alphastrikes.

We're already starting to run into this with the cabal set, free action damage items (FOP:Reaver, Psyferre's), and the proposed free actions from the wizard relic and legendary. I think we ought to future-proof this by making some or all of these "swift" and not free.

Making that changes immediately means you can never have two wizards in your group because only 1 can use their ability each turn.

It also means that any other class that gets a "swift" action is now limiting the wizard's damage output.

Creating any additional artificial limitation to hinder the ability for the Wizard to perform at full capacity on every turn immediately undermines the desire for Wizards to be top DPS. (Jeff's stated goal)

Daniel White wrote: I think we need to move from talking about "free" actions to talking about "swift" actions.

If we are talking about "free action" damage spells, there will be development problems again later on down the line.

A free action should be something on the level of drinking a potion. Something more powerful than that should be a "swift" action, with only one swift action usable per turn.

Otherwise, as more tokens are printed, we'll be running into a situation where:

1. No one wants more "action" tokens because it breaks the game; or
2. The free action sleaze starts to get really bad, with massive single-player free action alphastrikes.

We're already starting to run into this with the cabal set, free action damage items (FOP:Reaver, Psyferre's), and the proposed free actions from the wizard relic and legendary. I think we ought to future-proof this by making some or all of these "swift" and not free.

Free Actions as already limited to 1 per turn.

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
This would in no way allow the Wizards to compete with Rangers and Monks as top DPS which is Jeff's stated goal.

I think that is better done on the Wizard card. Maybe slide a puck and if it hits do something awesome to your spell is just a baseline wizard ability. Make sure the something awesome scales well with gear.

So, Wizard card changes are interesting. With a random 10-pack and a 4th level character card, Wizard is a top DD, glass cannon, just the way Jeff's said he intends. The problem is that the wizard doesn't scale well. So, in order to adjust the balance well, Wizard probably ought to have a scaling ability on the character card, rather than a straight buff to the card, at least at level 4.

Matt's idea about a % increase to spell damage bonus is good in the sense that it does not disturb the beginner balance, but gradually adjusts Wizard damage upward as tokens get stronger. What do Wizards think about that?

Fiddy wrote:

Daniel White wrote: I think we need to move from talking about "free" actions to talking about "swift" actions.

If we are talking about "free action" damage spells, there will be development problems again later on down the line.

A free action should be something on the level of drinking a potion. Something more powerful than that should be a "swift" action, with only one swift action usable per turn.

Otherwise, as more tokens are printed, we'll be running into a situation where:

1. No one wants more "action" tokens because it breaks the game; or
2. The free action sleaze starts to get really bad, with massive single-player free action alphastrikes.

We're already starting to run into this with the cabal set, free action damage items (FOP:Reaver, Psyferre's), and the proposed free actions from the wizard relic and legendary. I think we ought to future-proof this by making some or all of these "swift" and not free.

Free Actions as already limited to 1 per turn.

I sit corrected. Thanks.

Edit: Arcanist, I think you misread my post. It doesn't mean what you think it means, but the rule I want is already there.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: I say just scrap the wizard relic and legendary. We can revisit in another 7 years hahaha

There may be a shred of truth here. If we are time constrained, and want to do it right, would it be best to do design just on this for the next year and have it locked in before the next token cycle?

Downside is all the wizards have to wait a year for their relic and legendary. Plus side is, less chance of unforeseen issues

We've already given up our spellbook and our familiar. Now you want us to give up our CLASS NECKLACE?

Hard pass

Better keyword the hell out of it then so it can be errata’d on token DB when some problem is found in 2 months that no one noticed in 2 days of discussion.

Jeff Martin wrote: As Incognito correctly pointed out 7 years ago, the MEC would come back to bite us in the behind. It has made Wizard Relic and Legendary design very difficult. I hate to do it, but I think it is time to nerf it.

So long as the old MEC is an ingredient for the Relic then most folks won't mind, and those who won't be making the Relic -- they can send it in for a free swap. The main issue as I see it (I could be wrong) is that we have a crazy matrix of all these different spell bonuses and extra spells possible that is compounded by the poorly designed MEC token.

So...let's start over from scratch and design all 3 tokens (MEC, Relic and Legendary) so that they all work together to give the Wizards some fun capabilities. I see Wizards as glass cannons. I want them to do the best damage in the game, but I want them to die the most of all the classes because of their weak AC and hp. With great damage comes the big drawback of you will probably die if you aren't careful or lucky.

So...give me your thoughts on how we can redo the MEC to coordinate with the Relic and Legendary (and all the crazy Cabal/Spell Storing/ etc. powers out there.

I appreciate your patience with me. I painted us into a design corner, and now we gotta break down a wall (nerfing MEC) to get to a good place. If it helps, I am open to redesigning the Wizards cards next week to increase spell damage there. It would be better to fix the game on the cards rather than with tokens. Let's assume spell damage is roughly doubled moving forward.

My idea:

MEC = May cast 1st-2nd level spell as a free action but no another offensive action for combat

Relic = May cast spell as a free action (1/room) & Skill Check adds +12 pts (not +6) to spell

Legendary = As Relic & SC adds +18 pts (not +6) to spell & Retributive Strike

Retributive Strike = may break any Rare Wand to cause a massive out-powering of magical energy. All monsters in the room take 100 pts of Force damage. The Wizard takes this same damage unless she rolls an 6-20 on a d20.

I like your ideas on this. Even though I often play wizard, I agree with changing MEC - too many players and GMs don't understand it well enough as is. Although it was an investment to get, like the lenses of divine sight, I get the idea.

MEC - I assume by no offensive action, you mean other than casting another spell? Otherwise, I don't see this commonly being used.

I LOVE that you are keeping the skill checks as part of the calculus on damage. I recommend change the skill checks every year or two to keep it fresh. Right now, you do more damage skipping the skill check just to make combat go faster.

Free action casting but only 1/room means the cabal set and ring of spell storing still have value. It would also compete with using scrolls through sage speed lenses but I think that is ok - it's just a build choice. At only once per room, this won't get in the way of other free actions (most likely)

Are the free action cast spells fully modified? That makes a big difference in damage.

On the retributive strike, several thoughts:
1. Wand type should impact damage. A common wand doing the same as a rare doesn't make much sense. Perhaps something like 10 times the damage from the wand that it would normally deal?
2. We should take a page form old D&D and have it be a 50/50 chance. 50% of the time you get hit, 50% of the time you don't.
3. It should be area effect damage rather than just to one creature.
4. The damage should be eldritch so it cannot be resisted and have language that prevents cloak of shadowskin, paladin abilities, etc munchkinisms from keeping the damage from happening.
5. Language around how it interacts with the amulet of the mystic mouth would need to be clear. The amulet lets you pull out and use a wand as a free action. Retributive strike shouldn't be considered "using a wand" in the same context.

The retributive strike idea could also allow the a token the following year as a 3 or 4 point relic wand that does even more damage but is likely to be used in a retributive strike.

One other thought, with all the extra casting, perhaps the legendary could give an ability to restore a certain number of spell slots if all of them are used. I could see going through 4-6 spells per room and running out in the third combat.

Fred

Daniel White wrote: I think we need to move from talking about "free" actions to talking about "swift" actions.

You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.

The term "free action" in TD is already limited to one per round. It's exactly what you mean when you say "swift action". It's unfortunate that we've chosen to use the English word "free" for this action type because it's extremely counterintuitive, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

FoP: Reaver is an instant action, which means it doesn't use up your free (read: swift) action for the round.

HTH

Edit: Fiddy types faster than I do.

“I appreciate your patience with me. I painted us into a design corner, and now we gotta break down a wall (nerfing MEC) to get to a good place. If it helps, I am open to redesigning the Wizards cards next week to increase spell damage there. It would be better to fix the game on the cards rather than with tokens. Let's assume spell damage is roughly doubled moving forward.”

With the above constraints the cleanest way I can think of doing this is to double the boxes next to each spell on the character card along with modifying sliding spells into non-sliding spells.

MEC = May a cast 0-level thru-1st level spell as a free action each round.
Reasoning – allows doubling up casting of a 0-level or 1st level spell with another spell, use of wand, use of a scroll, or physical attack.

Relic = As MEC + May cast a 2nd thru 3rd level spell as a free action each round. Skill Check bonus for spells that have them adds +12 pts to spell upon successful skill test.
Reasoning – allows doubling up casting of a 0-level thru 3rd spell with another spell, use of wand, use of a scroll, or physical attack. And adds on top of that +9 or +18 damage depending on what action the wizard takes for their standard action.

Legendary = As Relic & Skill Check bonus for spells that have them add +18 pts to spell upon successful skill test & Retributive Strike
Reasoning – allows doubling up casting of a 0-level thru 3rd spell with another spell, use of wand, use of a scroll, or physical attack. And adds on top of that +18 or +36 damage depending on what action the wizard takes for their standard action.

Retributive Strike = may break any Rare Wizard usable Wand to cause a massive out-powering of magical energy. All monsters in the room take Force damage in the amount of the wizard maximum hit points and spell bonus. The Wizard takes this same damage and dies unless they naturally roll an 6-20 on a d20. If they save they are left at 1hp. This damage and effect can’t be prevented. (1/game)

The above retains that wand, scroll and physical damage is not affected by skill checks or spell damage bonus. There may be reasons a wizard want to do this in any given turn.

Two tokens I currently equip would be outdated by use of the above (Bracelets of the Zephyr and Carter's Tome).

Daniel White wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
This would in no way allow the Wizards to compete with Rangers and Monks as top DPS which is Jeff's stated goal.

I think that is better done on the Wizard card. Maybe slide a puck and if it hits do something awesome to your spell is just a baseline wizard ability. Make sure the something awesome scales well with gear.

So, Wizard card changes are interesting. With a random 10-pack and a 4th level character card, Wizard is a top DD, glass cannon, just the way Jeff's said he intends. The problem is that the wizard doesn't scale well. So, in order to adjust the balance well, Wizard probably ought to have a scaling ability on the character card, rather than a straight buff to the card, at least at level 4.

Matt's idea about a % increase to spell damage bonus is good in the sense that it does not disturb the beginner balance, but gradually adjusts Wizard damage upward as tokens get stronger. What do Wizards think about that?

You could:

*put something on the 5th level card that imbues FA spells - a burn out power so to speak

*increase the skill check benefit to a larger value at 5th level, and use a gear based multiplier

To get ahead of monk and ranger is going to be a tall order without a mix of card and token changes, while also scaling appropriately. The risk is that a wizard with a single item can dominate a normal pug run even more than current top level characters can.

What if the progression just builds off of the MEC?

Relic: take 20 damage to deal triple base damage on any spell
legendary: take 30 damage to quadruple base damage on any spell

Play with the damage to self and multipliers to reach a sacrifice that balances with the desired damage output.

Daniel White wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Daniel White wrote: I think we need to move from talking about "free" actions to talking about "swift" actions.

If we are talking about "free action" damage spells, there will be development problems again later on down the line.

A free action should be something on the level of drinking a potion. Something more powerful than that should be a "swift" action, with only one swift action usable per turn.

Otherwise, as more tokens are printed, we'll be running into a situation where:

1. No one wants more "action" tokens because it breaks the game; or
2. The free action sleaze starts to get really bad, with massive single-player free action alphastrikes.

We're already starting to run into this with the cabal set, free action damage items (FOP:Reaver, Psyferre's), and the proposed free actions from the wizard relic and legendary. I think we ought to future-proof this by making some or all of these "swift" and not free.

Free Actions as already limited to 1 per turn.

I sit corrected. Thanks.

Edit: Arcanist, I think you misread my post. It doesn't mean what you think it means, but the rule I want is already there.

Yep I think we misinterpreted eachother

Jeff, it would be good to have context around:

Jeff Martin wrote: I want them to do the best damage in the game

Is that assuming the Monks and Rangers stay as they are? Or assuming that the Monks and Rangers are reigned in somewhat as many have suggested in the past?