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TOPIC: Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary

Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #121

To simplify discussion, I would ignore MEC when designing relic and legendary. Not everyone has MEC. I would start with a relic that is coherent. Once it's determined what it does, move on to legendary. MEC, finally, gets changed based on functional relic and legendary. More "agile" development than waterfall, as MEC just seems doomed and, thus, can do anything at this point that doesn't screw the other tokens. While could start with legendary and work down to relic, that seems far more difficult than working up from relic.

I started writing out my thought process, but it ultimately went nowhere. The problem seems both simple and hard. Simple relic is just increase damage by at least +6 while giving some other benefit. Not SC based, not messing with how sliding works, no more spells, no FA. Once an effect like FA is added into the mix, it just becomes a mess of interdependent abilities.

Hard because the benchmark for damage is really high and it's actually pretty arbitrary. Again, we aren't talking about someone with a lucky treasure draw being the target audience for relics and legendaries, the audience is the forum arguer. If all the relic did was add 9 to spell damage, besides being boring, it would not give burst damage like crits do or Sneak Attack can, so it doesn't solve the damage problem. One extra MM in a round is 22 damage, where someone suggesting the relic be +20 and the legendary be +40 spell damage is probably not going to fly. The common currency is just so messed up. That MM might only be once a combat rather than once every round, which completey changes the numbers.

I don't know. The more I think about it, the more flaws I can see in my own attempt to address the problem as what people want varies, while there are multiple dependencies to be able to set a numerical value that seem like they could change. Then, I feel the wizard pain more at every level besides the level where relics and legendaries matter because class card changes matter so much less at the relic/legendary level.
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #122

If the token is going to boost spell check damage , which I like, I would like to see it set an amount of bonus instead of saying a flat rate so that if spell check ever gets a boost in the future it scales with it.

As for the final act I think it would be cool to have something like (spell damage x number of spells left) slid spell can crit. I think it would be funny to see a puck on the board worth 400 damage that everyone else is trying to knock around or stay away from
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #123

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

David Zych wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

David Zych wrote: These two MEC ideas:

Jeff (OP): May cast 1st-2nd level spell as a free action but no another offensive action for combat

Arcanist (post #52): 10 HP - Duplicate a spell just cast as a free action

both seem to play in the same space, incurring a penalty and using FA to produce an extra damage spell with full bonuses.

The important differences seem to be:
* eligible spell levels: 1-2 vs any
* consumes checkbox: yes vs no
* frequency: 1/combat vs 1/round (since it uses your FA)
* penalty: chance of thumb-twiddling vs 10 damage to self

Jeff knows which aspects are most important to him.

Which are most important to UR+ Wizards who own a MEC? (for the UR level, as a replacement/nerf)

(Edit: for contrast, current MEC on these same metrics is level:any, checkbox:no, 1/round, and penalty:10hp, but it does NOT include bonuses, and it also doesn't use up your FA)


The Mad Evoker's Charm as suggested in the first post is unusable. No Wizard would EVER purchase or equip that design.

At least my suggestion keeps it usable. The suggested design tells me I don't use the Mad Evoker's Charm unless I KNOW the enemy dies this round. It has no risk/reward in it's design


FWIW I totally agree with you, I like your suggestion, and I'm feeling really bad for wizards right now. Since I don't fully understand which aspect of MEC is motivating Jeff to change it, I thought it might be helpful to establish specifically which aspects of it are most loved, and maybe we could end up with a new MEC that's slightly different but similarly appealing. Hope springs eternal?

In particular, applying the spell damage bonus is an improvement over legacy MEC. If the thumb-twiddling part were fixed, what other aspect(s) might or might not feel like a fair trade for including the bonus?


If scaling is the issue with the MEC my suggested change would be

take 10 Eldritch damage as an instant action to add +20 Eldritch damage to the next spell you cast (1/round)

Keeps the token and it's effect. Doesn't cause problems with spell redesign.


I don't think scaling is the issue with the MEC, though, because the version in Jeff's post #1 does scale (both with class card values and with spell damage bonuses). I infer that it must have something to do with either spell levels, checkboxes, frequency, penalty, or stacking with another FA, because those are all the differences I see.
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #124

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Aeroneus Martellus wrote:

David Zych wrote: FWIW I totally agree with you, I like your suggestion, and I'm feeling really bad for wizards right now. Since I don't fully understand which aspect of MEC is motivating Jeff to change it, I thought it might be helpful to establish specifically which aspects of it are most loved, and maybe we could end up with a new MEC that's slightly different but similarly appealing. Hope springs eternal?

In particular, applying the spell damage bonus is an improvement over legacy MEC. If the thumb-twiddling part were fixed, what other aspect(s) might or might not feel like a fair trade for including the bonus?


I've always liked the damage to self aspect of MEC - part of my Wizard build has been to boost my HP because I have to burn it to use MEC. It sounds like my base damage for spells is going to go up two-foldish - so keeping MEC as is seems like it would completely break that. What if MEC just became a "spell" that you could cast, it doesn't end up on your card, and it is solely based off of how much HP you spend - it's an outpouring of internal energy to do damage. 1HP = 3 damage. Could even just say its 1/room? It's not a spell/scroll so couldn't be duplicated by any of the re-cast as free action items, etc... You don't get damage buffs from any items - its purely HP for arcane damage. Could leverage INT for the damage modifier? More INT means bigger MEC buff.


Leaving it as a charm with an instant action doesn't affect our free action economy. Changing the wording to simply be 10HP = +20 on next spell as an instant action keeps the flavor of the token without stacking scaling issues.


If I recast the spell as a free action do I get the +20? Or is it a one time bonus? I.e. assume three rounds of combat, the most I would get is +60 pts damage for 30HP.
"Not So Exclusive" "Exclusively" Elf Wizard

Also run as "MElf - a Thor Wielding Tank"!
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #125

I feel like this view is getting lost in the tsunami of posts -- I'll probably never purchase a legendary item (and CoA would be the first, obviously...) But I would buy a lesser token that gave the spellbook ability, and another that gave the familiar ability. Why? Because they're FUN. I'm not particularly interested in the max DPS of any particular class, or playing at epic level.
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #126

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Miathan wrote: If the token is going to boost spell check damage , which I like, I would like to see it set an amount of bonus instead of saying a flat rate so that if spell check ever gets a boost in the future it scales with it.

As for the final act I think it would be cool to have something like (spell damage x number of spells left) slid spell can crit. I think it would be funny to see a puck on the board worth 400 damage that everyone else is trying to knock around or stay away from

I know I'm just one player, but tying the Wizard "big boom" to a slide seems like everything that the class wasn't meant to be, from the training room on. I can almost guarantee I would never make that Legendary.
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #127

Aeroneus Martellus wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Aeroneus Martellus wrote:

David Zych wrote: FWIW I totally agree with you, I like your suggestion, and I'm feeling really bad for wizards right now. Since I don't fully understand which aspect of MEC is motivating Jeff to change it, I thought it might be helpful to establish specifically which aspects of it are most loved, and maybe we could end up with a new MEC that's slightly different but similarly appealing. Hope springs eternal?

In particular, applying the spell damage bonus is an improvement over legacy MEC. If the thumb-twiddling part were fixed, what other aspect(s) might or might not feel like a fair trade for including the bonus?


I've always liked the damage to self aspect of MEC - part of my Wizard build has been to boost my HP because I have to burn it to use MEC. It sounds like my base damage for spells is going to go up two-foldish - so keeping MEC as is seems like it would completely break that. What if MEC just became a "spell" that you could cast, it doesn't end up on your card, and it is solely based off of how much HP you spend - it's an outpouring of internal energy to do damage. 1HP = 3 damage. Could even just say its 1/room? It's not a spell/scroll so couldn't be duplicated by any of the re-cast as free action items, etc... You don't get damage buffs from any items - its purely HP for arcane damage. Could leverage INT for the damage modifier? More INT means bigger MEC buff.


Leaving it as a charm with an instant action doesn't affect our free action economy. Changing the wording to simply be 10HP = +20 on next spell as an instant action keeps the flavor of the token without stacking scaling issues.


If I recast the spell as a free action do I get the +20? Or is it a one time bonus? I.e. assume three rounds of combat, the most I would get is +60 pts damage for 30HP.


Correct. Same as the current design it's usable 1/round
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #128

EvilJohn wrote: I feel like this view is getting lost in the tsunami of posts -- I'll probably never purchase a legendary item (and CoA would be the first, obviously...) But I would buy a lesser token that gave the spellbook ability, and another that gave the familiar ability. Why? Because they're FUN. I'm not particularly interested in the max DPS of any particular class, or playing at epic level.


The spellbook/familiar got pushed out to next year - so if we're moving down the Relic/Legendary route this year, we'd hopefully get them next.
"Not So Exclusive" "Exclusively" Elf Wizard

Also run as "MElf - a Thor Wielding Tank"!
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #129

NightGod wrote:

Miathan wrote: If the token is going to boost spell check damage , which I like, I would like to see it set an amount of bonus instead of saying a flat rate so that if spell check ever gets a boost in the future it scales with it.

As for the final act I think it would be cool to have something like (spell damage x number of spells left) slid spell can crit. I think it would be funny to see a puck on the board worth 400 damage that everyone else is trying to knock around or stay away from

I know I'm just one player, but tying the Wizard "big boom" to a slide seems like everything that the class wasn't meant to be, from the training room on. I can almost guarantee I would never make that Legendary.


I am personally OK with spell slides but they are a decisive issue with Wizards so I'd agree to avoiding that option.

Skill checks are also a decisive issue so I'd avoid those for the 1/game flare.

What about a 1/game that just replicates the next spell you cast twice. Deals it's damage 3 times total. Uses a single slide/skill check/modifier/etc
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #130

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Aeroneus Martellus wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Aeroneus Martellus wrote:

David Zych wrote: FWIW I totally agree with you, I like your suggestion, and I'm feeling really bad for wizards right now. Since I don't fully understand which aspect of MEC is motivating Jeff to change it, I thought it might be helpful to establish specifically which aspects of it are most loved, and maybe we could end up with a new MEC that's slightly different but similarly appealing. Hope springs eternal?

In particular, applying the spell damage bonus is an improvement over legacy MEC. If the thumb-twiddling part were fixed, what other aspect(s) might or might not feel like a fair trade for including the bonus?


I've always liked the damage to self aspect of MEC - part of my Wizard build has been to boost my HP because I have to burn it to use MEC. It sounds like my base damage for spells is going to go up two-foldish - so keeping MEC as is seems like it would completely break that. What if MEC just became a "spell" that you could cast, it doesn't end up on your card, and it is solely based off of how much HP you spend - it's an outpouring of internal energy to do damage. 1HP = 3 damage. Could even just say its 1/room? It's not a spell/scroll so couldn't be duplicated by any of the re-cast as free action items, etc... You don't get damage buffs from any items - its purely HP for arcane damage. Could leverage INT for the damage modifier? More INT means bigger MEC buff.


Leaving it as a charm with an instant action doesn't affect our free action economy. Changing the wording to simply be 10HP = +20 on next spell as an instant action keeps the flavor of the token without stacking scaling issues.


If I recast the spell as a free action do I get the +20? Or is it a one time bonus? I.e. assume three rounds of combat, the most I would get is +60 pts damage for 30HP.


Correct. Same as the current design it's usable 1/round


Feels like a good compromise without the runaway scaling issues it seems like we are trying to combat. IF our base spell damage doubles - it would be the equivalent of a "free" magic missile? Maybe do +20 Damage to all monsters in the room instead? You OG spell still hits the first target, but the burst of energy hits everyone

EDIT: Thinking about this more - not sure if I just re-broke it.
"Not So Exclusive" "Exclusively" Elf Wizard

Also run as "MElf - a Thor Wielding Tank"!
Last edit: by Aeroneus Elfie.
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #131

I wonder if doubling the damage on the Wizard card to make the Wizard more competitive at higher difficulty levels will make the Wizard overpowered on Normal levels for groups using just starting 10 packs of tokens.
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Wizard MEC, Relic and Legendary 2 years 1 month ago #132

Mike Steele wrote: I wonder if doubling the damage on the Wizard card to make the Wizard more competitive at higher difficulty levels will make the Wizard overpowered on Normal levels for groups using just starting 10 packs of tokens.


This thread has nothing to do with the character card redesign. Could you please avoid derailing the thread with idle curiosities if possible
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