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TOPIC: FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images!

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #85

Hit point cap is just that. It does not enforce a fort save cap. It makes tokens that boost con not as useful after a certain point.

I may be interpreting that incorrectly but have not read on the token or see that the intent is to limit con or fort saves.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #86

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Mike Steele wrote: Since I haven't seen anyone else calculate the damage from this latest Wizard Legendary as well as the Ring of Expertise, I thought I'd take a shot at it. Please correct me if I'm mistaken because I'm not super familiar with top end Wizard tokens, but here's my take on what the Wizard can do in the first seven rounds (three rooms) using this Legendary, and the 35 point bonus damage I've seen used in other analysis. It adds up to an average of 122.7 damage per round, or 859 total damage for the seven turns. That seems very overpowered to me, and it will just get worse with the next character card level increase.

Room 1:

Turn 1: 133 damage
Lightning Storm: 20+20+35=75
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 2: 128 Damage
Scorching Ray: 18+18+35=71
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 3 (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 1): 114 Damage
Magic Missile (Cats Grace CoSS): 11+11+35=57
Magic Missile (Ring of Expertise): 11+11+35=57

Room 2:

Turn 4: 128 Damage
Ray of Shock: 18+18+35=71
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 5 (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 2): 114 Damage
Magic Missile (Ring of Expertise): 11+11+35=57
Magic Missile 11+11+35=57

Turn 6: 124
Lightning Storm (Crown of Expertise): 20+20+35=75
Burning Hands: 7+7+35=49

Room 3:

Turn 7: (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 3): 118
Magic Missile (Ring of Expertise): 11+11+35=57
Acid Ray: 12+12+35 = 59

It should be noted that an Elf Wizard, at least, is almost always going to be using Ring of Expertise to cast Alertness, not MM. It's too important not to.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #87

Ian Lee wrote: Re: Wizard stuff

Legendary seems to be saying you lose ability to FA 2nd level when you gain ability to with 3rd level.


I sure hope not - the Relic might be better than the Legendary in that case.

I think the character after the "70" should be a period, not a comma, for:

As MM but max hp cap is 70. (period)
(also) May cast 3rd-lvl spells as Free Actions & ...
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #88

NightGod wrote: So, there seems to be a bit of confusion. Is the Mage Legendary implying a HP cap on the wizard of 50/70 or a damage cap on the individual spells cast of 50/70?

I can make a case for either to be true.


It's max character HP - "max HP" is common wording when it modified the character's health:

tokendb.com/?fwp_token_search=max%20hp

There are no effects that cap damage, if there were I would guess they would say "max damage of X" or "max dmg of..."
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #89

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, Mage Medallion seems massively overpowered. It gives MEC bonuses to all spells now (including multiple per room) plus allows doubling of spells with the free action. The HP limit seems minor, especially since MEC damage is no longer a factor. As more free action spells are added from future tokens this will be more overpowered.

Adding 3rd level spells to free action with Legendary is just more doubling of spells per room. And, if it's now OK to auto succeed on skill tests, maybe we can bring back the UR from last year that let all classes do it.

I'd be interested in seeing a couple of max build analyses to see what the spell damage potential is incorporating these two Wizard tokens.


I don’t think the wizard token auto succeeds skill tests.

The last iteration granted 6 free action damage spells, and let you swap into as many more as you had higher level spells - but limited to 1/room so effectively 3 or 4.

This iteration grants 3 free action damage spells, and lets you swap into 1 more.

I think this version is less powerful than the last one, but only a little, and it’s much simpler to reason about.


Matthew, you're right, it's auto slide, not auto skill check.

Any chance you can do your magic analysis to see max damage incorporating these? It seems like this is OP to me, but it's hard to tell without crunching the numbers.


Why do you never do the math yourself?

assume 35 dmg modifier, multiply that by the total number of damage spells.

then go through the card and simply multiply each spell's listed dmg totals x2, and presto. You're done!

Then if you want to be really thorough, count each non-damage spell as a damage spell the level below, repeat the last step. Multiply that total number of non-dmg spells (hint, it's 2) by 35, add the result to your running total and donezo.


Partly because I have no idea what a BIS Wizard build looks like, and I don't know if 35 is the appropriate modifier, and I'm not sure how many bonus spells are being granted from various tokens & token set abilities. There are several people that have BIS Wizard builds done, and can just apply these tokens to it.


I suspect that this is why Wizards take issue with you saying a lot of their toys are OP.

If you don't understand their builds, you should perhaps delve deeper into it to get real perspective on how and why they are able to achieve the numbers they get to. I think it's best to formulate an opinion on a firm understanding of what goes into the math rather than looking at end results and misinterpreting the data.

I think the clearest example of this would be your co-opting Mattthew's 900 damage number but not really considering the HP cost (in MEC), nor the requirements of that build (lots of items dedicated to CON / HP bump) that present real opportunity cost to other things they could be doing.

Not trying to attack you, but I think it would make your stance stronger if you understood more fully the class and build you're offering your opinion on.


I just posted a detailed analysis of Wizard damage, doing nearly as much in 7 turns as a Barbarian can do in 10 (per Matthew's analysis of the Barbarian, which I trust). There is no MEC damage to consider anymore with the Legendary, so no cost for doing all that damage. So, whatever tokens Matthew put in to address the MEC damage can be reallocated elsewhere and make it even more powerful. If there is a fault in my analysis, please point it out to me.

The double-standard on these development threads for Wizard and Druid damage is pretty evident. When Matthew was able to show that the Druid could do about 900 points of damage over 10 turns when the Ring of Quick Prayer was unlimited doing max polymorph and spell damage combined, that was widely stated that it was an unacceptably high amount (it's now 140 points lower due to the nerfing of Ring of Quick Prayer). On the other hand, when I can show that the Wizard can now do nearly that much in three fewer turns, it's seen as an acceptable number. The Wizard can do about 100 more points of spell damage in 7 turns than the Druid can do in 10 combining Polymorph and spells, and about more than 300 more points in spell damage in 7 turns (with damage spells left over) than the Druid can do in total spell damage even maxing out the Charm of Spell Swapping (and again, let me know if that detailed analysis I did has any errors). To me, that is problematic. I recognize I'm in the minority thinking that is a problem.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #90

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since I haven't seen anyone else calculate the damage from this latest Wizard Legendary as well as the Ring of Expertise, I thought I'd take a shot at it. Please correct me if I'm mistaken because I'm not super familiar with top end Wizard tokens, but here's my take on what the Wizard can do in the first seven rounds (three rooms) using this Legendary, and the 35 point bonus damage I've seen used in other analysis. It adds up to an average of 122.7 damage per round, or 859 total damage for the seven turns. That seems very overpowered to me, and it will just get worse with the next character card level increase.

Room 1:

Turn 1: 133 damage
Lightning Storm: 20+20+35=75
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 2: 128 Damage
Scorching Ray: 18+18+35=71
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 3 (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 1): 114 Damage
Magic Missile (Cats Grace CoSS): 11+11+35=57
Magic Missile (Ring of Expertise): 11+11+35=57

Room 2:

Turn 4: 128 Damage
Ray of Shock: 18+18+35=71
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 5 (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 2): 114 Damage
Magic Missile (Ring of Expertise): 11+11+35=57
Magic Missile 11+11+35=57

Turn 6: 124
Lightning Storm (Crown of Expertise): 20+20+35=75
Burning Hands: 7+7+35=49

Room 3:

Turn 7: (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 3): 118
Magic Missile (Ring of Expertise): 11+11+35=57
Acid Ray: 12+12+35 = 59

It should be noted that an Elf Wizard, at least, is almost always going to be using Ring of Expertise to cast Alertness, not MM. It's too important not to.


It's also worth noting that BIS 35 spell damage Wizard DOES NOT have the 3 piece Cabal set as Blessed Tempest Gloves conflict with the Cabal Gloves.

So all of those damage numbers needs to drop by 3 (6 per round)
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #91

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: Re: Wizard stuff

Legendary seems to be saying you lose ability to FA 2nd level when you gain ability to with 3rd level.


I sure hope note - the Relic might be better than the Legendary in that case.

I think the character after the "70" should be a period, not a comma, for:

As MM but max hp cap is 70. (period)
(also) May cast 3rd-lvl spells as Free Actions & ...


It would definitely be clearer with a period and a capital "M".

I think Jeff just may like commas a little too much. Except for when he really should be using them. #OxfordCommaForLife
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #92

edwin wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: The HP cap was confusing at first, but I suspect that is for balance if the wizard wants to also use MEC. Which is unfortunate, because the HP cap seems like it can cause other problems in the future. I hope the cap can just be removed. Nothing has actually changed with the MEC and how much damage it can add per cost, so I don't see a reason to balance it.
In fact, since the MEC can only be used 1/round, casting more spells as free actions REDUCES the number of times you can use the MEC. It will just FEEL like it is stronger because of the massive damage burst in those rounds.
Looks like wizards are taking the Kurt Cobain approach: it is better to burn out than to fade away.

Also, I just realized a fun thing I can do (already, actually, but it just occurred to me); I can get 3 pucks on the table - main action is to throw the dagger of arcane luck, then slide empty puck for dagger special ability, then free action a sliding spell.


Current iteration also allows FA spell and use wand as standard action each turn.


No can do. If you use a wand as standard action, then you would have to use your free action to swap the wand out and free up your hands for casting.

Note in my scenario, I specifically have to THROW the dagger so that it isn't in hands when I go to cast as free action.
this is not a signature.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #93

Question:

The Mage Medallion and Ashenne's Arch-Mage Medallion don't say they prevent the use of MeC with them.

Can you also equip MeC and use it alongside Mage Medallion and Ashenne's?

If so, what happens when a MeC and the Mage Medallion both are equipped and I cast Magic Missile with MeC?

Is the base+bonus of Magic Missile:

Doubled because only one effect happens?

Tripled because when two 2x's happen in TD you get a 3x usually?

Quadrupled because 2*2 = 4?
?
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #94

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: Re: Wizard stuff

Legendary seems to be saying you lose ability to FA 2nd level when you gain ability to with 3rd level.


I sure hope note - the Relic might be better than the Legendary in that case.

I think the character after the "70" should be a period, not a comma, for:

As MM but max hp cap is 70. (period)
(also) May cast 3rd-lvl spells as Free Actions & ...


It would definitely be clearer with a period and a capital "M".

I think Jeff just may like commas a little too much. Except for when he really should be using them. #OxfordCommaForLife


Funny, I was just thinking the EXACT same thing about several tokens.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #95

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, Mage Medallion seems massively overpowered. It gives MEC bonuses to all spells now (including multiple per room) plus allows doubling of spells with the free action. The HP limit seems minor, especially since MEC damage is no longer a factor. As more free action spells are added from future tokens this will be more overpowered.

Adding 3rd level spells to free action with Legendary is just more doubling of spells per room. And, if it's now OK to auto succeed on skill tests, maybe we can bring back the UR from last year that let all classes do it.

I'd be interested in seeing a couple of max build analyses to see what the spell damage potential is incorporating these two Wizard tokens.


I don’t think the wizard token auto succeeds skill tests.

The last iteration granted 6 free action damage spells, and let you swap into as many more as you had higher level spells - but limited to 1/room so effectively 3 or 4.

This iteration grants 3 free action damage spells, and lets you swap into 1 more.

I think this version is less powerful than the last one, but only a little, and it’s much simpler to reason about.


Matthew, you're right, it's auto slide, not auto skill check.

Any chance you can do your magic analysis to see max damage incorporating these? It seems like this is OP to me, but it's hard to tell without crunching the numbers.


Why do you never do the math yourself?

assume 35 dmg modifier, multiply that by the total number of damage spells.

then go through the card and simply multiply each spell's listed dmg totals x2, and presto. You're done!

Then if you want to be really thorough, count each non-damage spell as a damage spell the level below, repeat the last step. Multiply that total number of non-dmg spells (hint, it's 2) by 35, add the result to your running total and donezo.


Partly because I have no idea what a BIS Wizard build looks like, and I don't know if 35 is the appropriate modifier, and I'm not sure how many bonus spells are being granted from various tokens & token set abilities. There are several people that have BIS Wizard builds done, and can just apply these tokens to it.


I suspect that this is why Wizards take issue with you saying a lot of their toys are OP.

If you don't understand their builds, you should perhaps delve deeper into it to get real perspective on how and why they are able to achieve the numbers they get to. I think it's best to formulate an opinion on a firm understanding of what goes into the math rather than looking at end results and misinterpreting the data.

I think the clearest example of this would be your co-opting Mattthew's 900 damage number but not really considering the HP cost (in MEC), nor the requirements of that build (lots of items dedicated to CON / HP bump) that present real opportunity cost to other things they could be doing.

Not trying to attack you, but I think it would make your stance stronger if you understood more fully the class and build you're offering your opinion on.


I just posted a detailed analysis of Wizard damage, doing nearly as much in 7 turns as a Barbarian can do in 10 (per Matthew's analysis of the Barbarian, which I trust). There is no MEC damage to consider anymore with the Legendary, so no cost for doing all that damage. So, whatever tokens Matthew put in to address the MEC damage can be reallocated elsewhere and make it even more powerful. If there is a fault in my analysis, please point it out to me.

The double-standard on these development threads for Wizard and Druid damage is pretty evident. When Matthew was able to show that the Druid could do about 900 points of damage over 10 turns when the Ring of Quick Prayer was unlimited doing max polymorph and spell damage combined, that was widely stated that it was an unacceptably high amount (it's now 140 points lower due to the nerfing of Ring of Quick Prayer). On the other hand, when I can show that the Wizard can now do nearly that much in three fewer turns, it's seen as an acceptable number. The Wizard can do about 100 more points of spell damage in 7 turns than the Druid can do in 10 combining Polymorph and spells, and about more than 300 more points in spell damage in 7 turns (with damage spells left over) than the Druid can do in total spell damage even maxing out the Charm of Spell Swapping (and again, let me know if that detailed analysis I did has any errors). To me, that is problematic. I recognize I'm in the minority thinking that is a problem.


An Ultra Rare token giving Druids 5 castings of 46 point damage Frozen Orbs = 230 damage not 140.

That's an Ultra Rare Token.

The Wizard Class Specific Legendary adds 3 castings of spells as Free Actions. One of which for the Wizard must be a level 1 spell, 2 of which must be at the Elf Wizard if spell swapped spells don't get the free action.

Assuming we can maximize and get 3 FA level 2 spells for the Wizard off their Class Specific Relic it's a net damage gain for the Wizard of

Ray spell - 18 + MEC 18 + spell damage 35 = 61
61*3 = 183

So the Relic token is giving Wizards 183 damage when calculating in the class specific spell doubling bonus on a Class specific necklace at the Relic level

The UR ring, designed for Clerics is giving Druids 11+35 = 46 * 3 = 138 damage on a non Druid specific Ultra Rare over that same 3 rounds of combat.

BUT the Druid still has 2 castings of FA Frozen Orb granted from the Ring for round 4 and 5, bringing their total damage bonus to 230 off an UR Ring.

Wizards do not have the capability of gaining an additional 2 castings of level 2 spells to use off the Relic as they have already used Stoneskin/Lesser Maze to perform the existing conversions.


So the UR ring is stronger than the Class Specific Relic Necklace when calculating it all of it's effects.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 8 months ago #96

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, Mage Medallion seems massively overpowered. It gives MEC bonuses to all spells now (including multiple per room) plus allows doubling of spells with the free action. The HP limit seems minor, especially since MEC damage is no longer a factor. As more free action spells are added from future tokens this will be more overpowered.

Adding 3rd level spells to free action with Legendary is just more doubling of spells per room. And, if it's now OK to auto succeed on skill tests, maybe we can bring back the UR from last year that let all classes do it.

I'd be interested in seeing a couple of max build analyses to see what the spell damage potential is incorporating these two Wizard tokens.


I don’t think the wizard token auto succeeds skill tests.

The last iteration granted 6 free action damage spells, and let you swap into as many more as you had higher level spells - but limited to 1/room so effectively 3 or 4.

This iteration grants 3 free action damage spells, and lets you swap into 1 more.

I think this version is less powerful than the last one, but only a little, and it’s much simpler to reason about.


Matthew, you're right, it's auto slide, not auto skill check.

Any chance you can do your magic analysis to see max damage incorporating these? It seems like this is OP to me, but it's hard to tell without crunching the numbers.


Why do you never do the math yourself?

assume 35 dmg modifier, multiply that by the total number of damage spells.

then go through the card and simply multiply each spell's listed dmg totals x2, and presto. You're done!

Then if you want to be really thorough, count each non-damage spell as a damage spell the level below, repeat the last step. Multiply that total number of non-dmg spells (hint, it's 2) by 35, add the result to your running total and donezo.


Partly because I have no idea what a BIS Wizard build looks like, and I don't know if 35 is the appropriate modifier, and I'm not sure how many bonus spells are being granted from various tokens & token set abilities. There are several people that have BIS Wizard builds done, and can just apply these tokens to it.


I suspect that this is why Wizards take issue with you saying a lot of their toys are OP.

If you don't understand their builds, you should perhaps delve deeper into it to get real perspective on how and why they are able to achieve the numbers they get to. I think it's best to formulate an opinion on a firm understanding of what goes into the math rather than looking at end results and misinterpreting the data.

I think the clearest example of this would be your co-opting Mattthew's 900 damage number but not really considering the HP cost (in MEC), nor the requirements of that build (lots of items dedicated to CON / HP bump) that present real opportunity cost to other things they could be doing.

Not trying to attack you, but I think it would make your stance stronger if you understood more fully the class and build you're offering your opinion on.


I just posted a detailed analysis of Wizard damage, doing nearly as much in 7 turns as a Barbarian can do in 10 (per Matthew's analysis of the Barbarian, which I trust). There is no MEC damage to consider anymore with the Legendary, so no cost for doing all that damage. So, whatever tokens Matthew put in to address the MEC damage can be reallocated elsewhere and make it even more powerful. If there is a fault in my analysis, please point it out to me.

The double-standard on these development threads for Wizard and Druid damage is pretty evident. When Matthew was able to show that the Druid could do about 900 points of damage over 10 turns when the Ring of Quick Prayer was unlimited doing max polymorph and spell damage combined, that was widely stated that it was an unacceptably high amount (it's now 140 points lower due to the nerfing of Ring of Quick Prayer). On the other hand, when I can show that the Wizard can now do nearly that much in three fewer turns, it's seen as an acceptable number. The Wizard can do about 100 more points of spell damage in 7 turns than the Druid can do in 10 combining Polymorph and spells, and about more than 300 more points in spell damage in 7 turns (with damage spells left over) than the Druid can do in total spell damage even maxing out the Charm of Spell Swapping (and again, let me know if that detailed analysis I did has any errors). To me, that is problematic. I recognize I'm in the minority thinking that is a problem.


Someone else mentioned it earlier but YOUR IGNORING that MEC can only be used on 1 spell per round. You're erroneously stating that Wizards can do all this horrendous damage yet you're inflating that number by at LEAST 33%
STOP IT
Please visit my fledgling token store.
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247486
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