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TOPIC: FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images!

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #37

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, Mage Medallion seems massively overpowered. It gives MEC bonuses to all spells now (including multiple per room) plus allows doubling of spells with the free action. The HP limit seems minor, especially since MEC damage is no longer a factor. As more free action spells are added from future tokens this will be more overpowered.

Adding 3rd level spells to free action with Legendary is just more doubling of spells per room. And, if it's now OK to auto succeed on skill tests, maybe we can bring back the UR from last year that let all classes do it.

I'd be interested in seeing a couple of max build analyses to see what the spell damage potential is incorporating these two Wizard tokens.


I don’t think the wizard token auto succeeds skill tests.

The last iteration granted 6 free action damage spells, and let you swap into as many more as you had higher level spells - but limited to 1/room so effectively 3 or 4.

This iteration grants 3 free action damage spells, and lets you swap into 1 more.

I think this version is less powerful than the last one, but only a little, and it’s much simpler to reason about.


Matthew, you're right, it's auto slide, not auto skill check.

Any chance you can do your magic analysis to see max damage incorporating these? It seems like this is OP to me, but it's hard to tell without crunching the numbers.


Why do you never do the math yourself?

assume 35 dmg modifier, multiply that by the total number of damage spells.

then go through the card and simply multiply each spell's listed dmg totals x2, and presto. You're done!

Then if you want to be really thorough, count each non-damage spell as a damage spell the level below, repeat the last step. Multiply that total number of non-dmg spells (hint, it's 2) by 35, add the result to your running total and donezo.


Partly because I have no idea what a BIS Wizard build looks like, and I don't know if 35 is the appropriate modifier, and I'm not sure how many bonus spells are being granted from various tokens & token set abilities. There are several people that have BIS Wizard builds done, and can just apply these tokens to it.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #38

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


Matthew, it seems very broken for the reasons I was opposed to it in the first place. It gives the Wizard not only 8 free spells, but 8 free spells that can be cast as instants alongside regular spells. When taking other tokens into account, it would let Wizards double-cast damage spells with full spell bonuses on each and the biggest one being modified by MEC nearly every combat round in the Dungeon.

When combined with the Ring of Expertise, the Wizards would be gaining 12 extra spells (8 as instant cast) above what Clerics and Dr. Uids are getting in this set.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #39

If we ever got 6th level characters ( much like the jump from 4th to 5th level a few years ago);would the cap be adjusted?
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #40

Matthew Hayward wrote:
Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

What say you?


Part-time wizard, here.
The new item I like well enough (except HP cap), but I do prefer Matt's suggestion.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #41

Cap on number of times casting certain levels spells as free action are inconsistently listed or not listed on tokens. The decision on this may heavily influence what a spellbook, prayerbook or songbook can be or whether they will ever exist.

Character cards restrict how many spells you get at a level. When you swap spells to a lower level it should not reward you with more effect.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #42

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?



I HATE THE HP CAP
I will be really hard pressed to even consider this iteration. JEFF, I really appreciate the variety and imagination you have to come up with these various designs and the patience to put up with us.
That being said, I do like the above version Waaaaayyyyyyy more than the current version.
I would really like it if it had one of the effects below on the Legendary. Both bring back aspects of the class that I haven't taken advantage of in a very long time. I skip skill checks because it's only 3 points of damage and I use ring of spell swapping so I don't have to slide. There is no upside for me to slide. I knock other players pucks out of the way and sometimes don't even hit.
19-20 x3 crit on slides
+x to successful skill checks
Please visit my fledgling token store.
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247486
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #43

Also the text is removed from the Skull of Cavadar
Please visit my fledgling token store.
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247486
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #44

Looks like the Fighter legendary has a typo? Is "all Handed weapons" intentional?
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #45

The HP cap was confusing at first, but I suspect that is for balance if the wizard wants to also use MEC. Which is unfortunate, because the HP cap seems like it can cause other problems in the future. I hope the cap can just be removed. Nothing has actually changed with the MEC and how much damage it can add per cost, so I don't see a reason to balance it.
In fact, since the MEC can only be used 1/round, casting more spells as free actions REDUCES the number of times you can use the MEC. It will just FEEL like it is stronger because of the massive damage burst in those rounds.
Looks like wizards are taking the Kurt Cobain approach: it is better to burn out than to fade away.

Also, I just realized a fun thing I can do (already, actually, but it just occurred to me); I can get 3 pucks on the table - main action is to throw the dagger of arcane luck, then slide empty puck for dagger special ability, then free action a sliding spell.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #46

Too many additional free action spells is not the way I want to go. It causes stacking issues and will limit future token design options.
Last edit: by edwin.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #47

kurtreznor wrote: The HP cap was confusing at first, but I suspect that is for balance if the wizard wants to also use MEC. Which is unfortunate, because the HP cap seems like it can cause other problems in the future. I hope the cap can just be removed. Nothing has actually changed with the MEC and how much damage it can add per cost, so I don't see a reason to balance it.
In fact, since the MEC can only be used 1/round, casting more spells as free actions REDUCES the number of times you can use the MEC. It will just FEEL like it is stronger because of the massive damage burst in those rounds.
Looks like wizards are taking the Kurt Cobain approach: it is better to burn out than to fade away.

Also, I just realized a fun thing I can do (already, actually, but it just occurred to me); I can get 3 pucks on the table - main action is to throw the dagger of arcane luck, then slide empty puck for dagger special ability, then free action a sliding spell.


Current iteration also allows FA spell and use wand as standard action each turn.
Last edit: by edwin.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 1 year 10 months ago #48

Dergidan wrote: Looks like the Fighter legendary has a typo? Is "all Handed weapons" intentional?


Based on last iteration 1 handed is intended.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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