TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final!

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Daniel White wrote: I would be for increasing the skill check bonus and not making it automatic. Skill checks are a cool mechanic, and should have a point.

I don't know how I feel about removing the MEC 1/ round limitation. I feel at least that if that happens, it should be on the relic or legendary, and not on MEC as a UR. MEC as a UR is already far more powerful than the baseline for the charm slot.

I'm not so sure about that. Trading 10 HP for 20 damage (3rd level) or 11 damage (1st level plus skill check) isnt OP IMO.

If it did spell bonus as well, then yes, I would agree.

Trade 5 hp for 20 dmg?

Then FA cast a dart and trade 5 hp for 16?

Then add the damage modifier twice for another ~70?

At the Legendary?

What EXACTLY are you referencing with your comments. What spells, what necklace. Throwing numbers out without reference doesn't exactly help the conversation

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Daniel White wrote: I would be for increasing the skill check bonus and not making it automatic. Skill checks are a cool mechanic, and should have a point.

I don't know how I feel about removing the MEC 1/ round limitation. I feel at least that if that happens, it should be on the relic or legendary, and not on MEC as a UR. MEC as a UR is already far more powerful than the baseline for the charm slot.

I'm not so sure about that. Trading 10 HP for 20 damage (3rd level) or 11 damage (1st level plus skill check) isnt OP IMO.

If it did spell bonus as well, then yes, I would agree.

Trade 5 hp for 20 dmg?

Then FA cast a dart and trade 5 hp for 16?

Then add the damage modifier twice for another ~70?

He was talking about the UR, or so I thought

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Daniel White wrote: I would be for increasing the skill check bonus and not making it automatic. Skill checks are a cool mechanic, and should have a point.

I don't know how I feel about removing the MEC 1/ round limitation. I feel at least that if that happens, it should be on the relic or legendary, and not on MEC as a UR. MEC as a UR is already far more powerful than the baseline for the charm slot.

I'm not so sure about that. Trading 10 HP for 20 damage (3rd level) or 11 damage (1st level plus skill check) isnt OP IMO.

If it did spell bonus as well, then yes, I would agree.

Trade 5 hp for 20 dmg?

Then FA cast a dart and trade 5 hp for 16?

Then add the damage modifier twice for another ~70?

He was talking about the UR, or so I thought

The UR does none of what is mentioned, hence the question

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Daniel White wrote: I would be for increasing the skill check bonus and not making it automatic. Skill checks are a cool mechanic, and should have a point.

I don't know how I feel about removing the MEC 1/ round limitation. I feel at least that if that happens, it should be on the relic or legendary, and not on MEC as a UR. MEC as a UR is already far more powerful than the baseline for the charm slot.

I'm not so sure about that. Trading 10 HP for 20 damage (3rd level) or 11 damage (1st level plus skill check) isnt OP IMO.

If it did spell bonus as well, then yes, I would agree.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: EXACTLY

STR: 12
DEX: 14
CON: 18
INT: 19
WIS: 11
CHA: 11

Spell:
Damage: 35 Heal: 22 Resist: 0


Melee Mainhand: Drake’s +5 Staff of Focus
Eyes: Lenses of Focus
Wrist: Bracelets of the Cabal
Hands: Blessed Tempest Gloves
Neck: Slithigarrette's Arch-Mage Medallion (current iteration)
Ring: Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus
Ring: Ring of Greater Focus
Ring: Ring of the Drake
Waist: Arcane Belt
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Constitution
Boots: Boots of the Four Winds
Charm: Charm of Glory
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts

Standard Action: Lightning Storm, 20 dmg
+ MEC it, 20 dmg
Dmg modifier, 35 dmg

Free Action: Fire Dart, 6dmg
+ Skill Check, 10dmg
+ MEC it, 16dmg
+Dmg modifier, 35dmg

20 + 20 + 35 + 6 + 10 + 16 + 35 = 142

I wasn't sure I understood what Wade was implying. What I inferred from his comment was:

A - MEC isn't that strong
B - MEC wouldn't be so bad if you could use it more than once per round
C - Here is an example of how paying 10 life to double Lightning Storm is not so bad.

So I replied to Wade to mostly say- "MEC only requires you to pay 5 damage, but hey, MEC'ing on your free action can net you some more damage."

Trading 10 hp under the new neck token gets you a lot farther than 20 dmg.

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Daniel White wrote: I would be for increasing the skill check bonus and not making it automatic. Skill checks are a cool mechanic, and should have a point.

I don't know how I feel about removing the MEC 1/ round limitation. I feel at least that if that happens, it should be on the relic or legendary, and not on MEC as a UR. MEC as a UR is already far more powerful than the baseline for the charm slot.

I'm not so sure about that. Trading 10 HP for 20 damage (3rd level) or 11 damage (1st level plus skill check) isnt OP IMO.

If it did spell bonus as well, then yes, I would agree.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: EXACTLY

STR: 12
DEX: 14
CON: 18
INT: 19
WIS: 11
CHA: 11

Spell:
Damage: 35 Heal: 22 Resist: 0


Melee Mainhand: Drake’s +5 Staff of Focus
Eyes: Lenses of Focus
Wrist: Bracelets of the Cabal
Hands: Blessed Tempest Gloves
Neck: Slithigarrette's Arch-Mage Medallion (current iteration)
Ring: Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus
Ring: Ring of Greater Focus
Ring: Ring of the Drake
Waist: Arcane Belt
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Constitution
Boots: Boots of the Four Winds
Charm: Charm of Glory
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts

Standard Action: Lightning Storm, 20 dmg
+ MEC it, 20 dmg
Dmg modifier, 35 dmg

Free Action: Fire Dart, 6dmg
+ Skill Check, 10dmg
+ MEC it, 16dmg
+Dmg modifier, 35dmg

20 + 20 + 35 + 6 + 10 + 16 + 35 = 142

I wasn't sure I understood what Wade was implying. What I inferred from his comment was:

A - MEC isn't that strong
B - MEC wouldn't be so bad if you could use it more than once per round
C - Here is an example of how paying 10 life to double Lightning Storm is not so bad.

So I replied to Wade to mostly say- "MEC only requires you to pay 5 damage, but hey, MEC'ing on your free action can net you some more damage."

Trading 10 hp under the new neck token gets you a lot farther than 20 dmg.

The Mad Evoker's Charm still requires 10HP and is only usable 1 spell/ round.

The current active relic design is 5HP and still only usable 1 spell/ round.

My suggested relic is where we get to add the damage doubler to both spells. (off 1 trigger not 2)

At the proposed Relic we'd be looking at adding + 18 damage on the second free action spell assuming you have some way to free action a second spell and cast a level 2 sliding spell with it(which is only currently via Ring of Spell Storing or the 3 piece Cabal set. Also the reason we wanted those additional free action spells on the old necklace. To actually get to double cast spells)

That seems like a good level to be at damage wise on a legendary token, even with it's free action limitations

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Daniel White wrote: I would be for increasing the skill check bonus and not making it automatic. Skill checks are a cool mechanic, and should have a point.

I don't know how I feel about removing the MEC 1/ round limitation. I feel at least that if that happens, it should be on the relic or legendary, and not on MEC as a UR. MEC as a UR is already far more powerful than the baseline for the charm slot.

I'm not so sure about that. Trading 10 HP for 20 damage (3rd level) or 11 damage (1st level plus skill check) isnt OP IMO.

If it did spell bonus as well, then yes, I would agree.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: EXACTLY

STR: 12
DEX: 14
CON: 18
INT: 19
WIS: 11
CHA: 11

Spell:
Damage: 35 Heal: 22 Resist: 0


Melee Mainhand: Drake’s +5 Staff of Focus
Eyes: Lenses of Focus
Wrist: Bracelets of the Cabal
Hands: Blessed Tempest Gloves
Neck: Slithigarrette's Arch-Mage Medallion (current iteration)
Ring: Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus
Ring: Ring of Greater Focus
Ring: Ring of the Drake
Waist: Arcane Belt
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Constitution
Boots: Boots of the Four Winds
Charm: Charm of Glory
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts

Standard Action: Lightning Storm, 20 dmg
+ MEC it, 20 dmg
Dmg modifier, 35 dmg

Free Action: Fire Dart, 6dmg
+ Skill Check, 10dmg
+ MEC it, 16dmg
+Dmg modifier, 35dmg

20 + 20 + 35 + 6 + 10 + 16 + 35 = 142

I wasn't sure I understood what Wade was implying. What I inferred from his comment was:

A - MEC isn't that strong
B - MEC wouldn't be so bad if you could use it more than once per round
C - Here is an example of how paying 10 life to double Lightning Storm is not so bad.

So I replied to Wade to mostly say- "MEC only requires you to pay 5 damage, but hey, MEC'ing on your free action can net you some more damage."

Trading 10 hp under the new neck token gets you a lot farther than 20 dmg.

The Mad Evoker's Charm still requires 10HP and is only usable 1 spell/ round.

The current active relic design is 5HP and still only usable 1 spell/ round.

My suggested relic is where we get to add the damage doubler to both spells. (off 1 trigger not 2)

At the proposed Relic we'd be looking at adding + 18 damage on the second free action spell assuming you have some way to free action a second spell and cast a level 2 sliding spell with it(which is only currently via Ring of Spell Storing or the 3 piece Cabal set. Also the reason we wanted those additional free action spells on the old necklace. To actually get to double cast spells)

Granting plentiful free actions is a Pandora's Box.

I think it's a relative consensus that Rangers and Monks are OP. The thing that makes them OP is the fact that they can gain a bonus from their modifiers 2x per round.

That's essentially the same thing that happens when you cast as a free action.

The legendary as-proposed all but guarantees that a Wizard will never cast a spell that deals less than 16 damage (sliding spells notwithstanding).

Compare this with a legendary Deathcleaver that averages ~13 damage.

BUT, stacking melee damage is vastly easier to do than spell damage. A BIS melee sports ~63 damage.

IMHO, To balance things out, Wizards need to close the gap between 35 spell dmg and 63 melee dmg.

There is a very tricky variable in there due to MEC, and there's a lot to consider because it's never a given that MEC is triggered....and as correctly pointed out, it requires a Wizard to assemble his/her build in a specific way.

This is all to say I've never been a fan of granting FA spells. I don't want to be a broken record and rehash why I think they're troublesome. Only TPTB know how to balance their game, though...so I'll leave it to them to figure out.

Do we need to consider the +3 ranged damage from Cranstons hat as an option now over crown of expertise?

Adam Guay wrote: Do we need to consider the +3 ranged damage from Cranstons hat as an option now over crown of expertise?

From what I understand Ring of Spell Storing is taken over Ring of Greater Focus due to it's higher damage totals but those calculations may change with regards to the crown vs cranston's.

Cranstons is also not finalized and has changed multiple times already. So for the moment I am ignoring it until the design is officially finalized.

Adam Guay wrote: Do we need to consider the +3 ranged damage from Cranstons hat as an option now over crown of expertise?

It's a consideration. Do you need the extra spell from the Crown? If I'm an elf wizard, the extra spell lets me cast another Fireball for 20pt plus MEC for 20pt plus 32pts bonus damage for 72pts of damage. Unless you can cast 24 spells, you take that over the extra +3 per spell.

However, if you have extra spells, then instead of the Fireball, you could still cast something like a Magic Missile for 11+11+32 = 54. In that case the differential is only 20 pts. As long as you can get the +3 benefit from 7 spells or more, you come out ahead. But I don't think you can slide on 7 spells, so I would say Expertise is still better. But it's close enough that play style preference comes into play.

So....it depends.

Edit: Admittedly, the above is a little simplistic. If you take MEC out of the equation, the differential is only 11. If you consider the possibility of hitting a crit on the slide the differential is even smaller, but then grows again when you factor in the miss potential of slid spell. Bottom line is still pretty much the same. It depends on your style of play.

Dave wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: Do we need to consider the +3 ranged damage from Cranstons hat as an option now over crown of expertise?

It's a consideration. Do you need the extra spell from the Crown? If I'm an elf wizard, the extra spell lets me cast another Fireball for 20pt plus MEC for 20pt plus 32pts bonus damage for 72pts of damage. Unless you can cast 24 spells, you take that over the extra +3 per spell.

However, if you have extra spells, then instead of the Fireball, you could still cast something like a Magic Missile for 11+11+32 = 54. In that case the differential is only 20 pts. As long as you can get the +3 benefit from 7 spells or more, you come out ahead. But I don't think you can slide on 7 spells, so I would say Expertise is still better. But it's close enough that play style preference comes into play.

So....it depends.

Edit: Admittedly, the above is a little simplistic. If you take MEC out of the equation, the differential is only 11. If you consider the possibility of hitting a crit on the slide the differential is even smaller, but then grows again when you factor in the miss potential of slid spell. Bottom line is still pretty much the same. It depends on your style of play.

Ultimately the numbers will vary until tokens are finalized and we can examine the interactions

The way I run an Elf Wizard (I have no desire to use MEC. I am not saying that these tokens should remove the MEC portion just like the Ranger legendary that I use and do not take advantage of a companion since I am far less accurate in sliding with two pucks):
- current relic provides a benefit of +6 damage per roughly half the spells I cast.
- current legendary provides the benefit of +10 per roughly half the spells I cast. I also slide last to avoid affecting other good slides and would not aim for a 19-20 unless I chuck the hammer. The FA 0- level spell may be used once or twice early in a run though.

Over a run I would gain around 30 damage for the relic and 112 points of damage for the legendary as a trade off of 3 charms.

This is a different perspective than looking at how much it adds or how it stacks up against other classes damage potential.

Not decided one way or another until the final design is completed before I decide whether to transmute.

This does not account for any other possible changes from 2021 tokens.