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TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final!

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #73

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I thank kurt and the others for their comments, it's good to get all perspectives.

That being said we have statements from non Wizard main players saying they like the token because it removes things they aren't good at (doing skill checks)

I don't think that is the correct direction for the class legendary token to be going, I think the group of players that it should aim to be most accepted by is the ones who play Wizard as main class and the ones who play no other class.


I agree, full time wizards should be the primary target of our attacks these items. That's part of why I mentioned my non-main status.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #74

Someone asked how this analysis changes under some conditions:

Condition A: MeC doubles all base damage in a round.
Condition B: MeC doules all base and bonus damage in a round.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973


Condition A: MeC doubles base of all spells in a round.

This adds:

7 level 0 spell base damage+skill bonuses: 7*(3+10) = 91 additional

If the extra condition A ability of MeC is limited to 1/room instead 3*(3+10) = 39 additional (instead of 91 additional)

Modify the 10 in the calculations above to see how different total skill check bonuses would change the results of this condition.

Condition B: MeC doubles base and bonus of all spells in a round.


This adds:

The effect of Condition A: +91
And also 17 additional uses of your Spell Bonus = 17*30 = 510 (substitute your spell bonus for 30 if you like instead)
Total additional damage: 601

If the condition B extra ability of MeC is limited to 1/room instead adds, roughly:
39 + 6 additional uses of your spell bonus = 39 + 6*30 = 219

( I say roughly because you would then shuffle around the order you cast things to cast Lightning Storm 1/room probably for a few more points of damage - I'll let someone else worry about figuring out how to optimize that...)

If the condition B extra ability of MeC is limited to X/game instead, it would add:

X * ( 2*30 + either 3 or 8 depending 2nd spell cast that round + skill check modifier on 2nd spell cast ) )

(Replace the 30 in the equation above with your spell bonus if you disagree with a SB of 30).

A third condition, not contemplated above, would be:

Condition C:
MeC effect on the Legendary doubles the spell bonus only instead of the base and skill check bonus. This would scale with other Focus boosting tokens.

This would cost you:
Lose MeC base and skill check bonus on 7 Magic Missile and 3 Lightning Storm:
-7*(8+10) -3*20 = -186

But would grant the spell-bonus-only-doubling-MeC on 10 castings worth of spell bonuses:
10*30 = 300

For a net change of 300-186 = +114.

This also future proofs the legendary some - as new spell boosters scale up the power of the legendary (which othewise just provides flat bonuses).
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #75

Now that the Great Ranged Kerfluffle of 2020 is behind us, let's take a look at the Legendary again and play: "Can this token make Matt slide a spell attack?"

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

Assuming VTD rules, BiS Wizards will:
Hit 70% of the time
Crit 20% of the time on Slide Spells.

That makes:

Level 2 18 point damage base spells worth (without MeC):
(18 + SB=30)*( 0.7 + 3*0.2 ) = 62 points of damage
Compare with Magic Missile, which is worth: 8+10+30 = 48
So it's worth ~25% more damage, but more swingy.

What about spell swapping into Acid Ray instead of Magic Missile (without MeC):
MM = 48
Acid Ray: (12 + SB=30)*(0.7 + 3*0.2) = 55
Slightly more on average - maybe not enough to give up the consistency.



Question:

If a Slide Spell is doubled with MeC, and scores a Crit, is the value of MeC's boost tripled in the the result?


E.g. would you calculate a MeC'ed Ray of Shock as:

(18 base + 18 base from MeC + SB=30)*3 for crit = 216
Or is it:
(18 base + SB=30)*3 for crit + 18 from MeC = 162
?
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #76

Also, just for fun...

Let's assume that MeC's added damage is tripled by the Crit.

Let's assume you slide a 20 and use Ring of Wizardry, and that it adds another 1x for 4x total

(18 from spell + 18 from MeC + 30 spell Bonus ) * (3 from Legendary + 1 from Ring of Wizardry ) = 264 from one standard action.
Now assume I use RoSS as my FA and slide again and also get a 19-20:
(18 from spell + 30 spell bonus ) * 3 from legendary = 144

408 damage in 1 round (requires a slid 20 and a slid 19 or 20).


Wizards are coming for you, RoSP Assassin :P
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #77

Making the Legendary a fourth Cabal item, would allow wizards to gain benefit of Cabal set and Arcane set. Not sure if people would run both sets, but it would be possible...
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #78

Elf Wizard has one less slide spell than Wizard (1 Acid Ray, 1 Ray of Shock, as compared to those two and also a Scorching Ray on Wizard).

A bit tough on the Elf Wizard that.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #79

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Matthew Hayward wrote: Elf Wizard has one less slide spell than Wizard (1 Acid Ray, 1 Ray of Shock, as compared to those two and also a Scorching Ray on Wizard).

A bit tough on the Elf Wizard that.

Elf Wizard brings Alertness and poly damage bonus to the table. I think small trade-offs like that are fine.
Last edit: by NightGod. Reason: words am hard
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #80

A comment for text consistency. The general format of 1/x abilities has been to be in parenthesis at the end of the text.

I would suggest the following token-text change:

"May cast 0-level spell as FA (1/room)."
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #81

kurtreznor wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I thank kurt and the others for their comments, it's good to get all perspectives.

That being said we have statements from non Wizard main players saying they like the token because it removes things they aren't good at (doing skill checks)

I don't think that is the correct direction for the class legendary token to be going, I think the group of players that it should aim to be most accepted by is the ones who play Wizard as main class and the ones who play no other class.


I agree, full time wizards should be the primary target of our attacks these items. That's part of why I mentioned my non-main status.


One of the reasons why I ended up picking the Elf Wizard on my first TD run - was because I was good at memorization. I do the skill checks on all my spells because I know them. Auto-succeeding skill checks feels like it takes away what I am supposed to be good at as a Wizard. In the same vein, boosting slide spells is nice, but again only benefits those Wizards that slide ALL the time. If Elf Wizard was a secondary for me I think I could get behind it a bit more because I feel like I would be more inclined to slide. For me personally, I tend to avoid sliding, mainly because sliding 1-2 per adventure basically means I'm terrible at it.
"Exclusively" Elf Wizard

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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #82

I love the idea of the legendary counting as one piece of the cabal set!
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #83

Matthew Hayward wrote: Now that the Great Ranged Kerfluffle of 2020 is behind us, let's take a look at the Legendary again and play: "Can this token make Matt slide a spell attack?"

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

Assuming VTD rules, BiS Wizards will:
Hit 70% of the time
Crit 20% of the time on Slide Spells.

That makes:

Level 2 18 point damage base spells worth (without MeC):
(18 + SB=30)*( 0.7 + 3*0.2 ) = 62 points of damage
Compare with Magic Missile, which is worth: 8+10+30 = 48
So it's worth ~25% more damage, but more swingy.

What about spell swapping into Acid Ray instead of Magic Missile (without MeC):
MM = 48
Acid Ray: (12 + SB=30)*(0.7 + 3*0.2) = 55
Slightly more on average - maybe not enough to give up the consistency.



Question:

If a Slide Spell is doubled with MeC, and scores a Crit, is the value of MeC's boost tripled in the the result?


E.g. would you calculate a MeC'ed Ray of Shock as:

(18 base + 18 base from MeC + SB=30)*3 for crit = 216
Or is it:
(18 base + SB=30)*3 for crit + 18 from MeC = 162
?


I think you're being overly generous on the percentage chance to Crit for most Wizards who hate to slide anyway. Then factor in competition from all the other melee classes trying to do the same thing.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #84

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Now that the Great Ranged Kerfluffle of 2020 is behind us, let's take a look at the Legendary again and play: "Can this token make Matt slide a spell attack?"

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

Assuming VTD rules, BiS Wizards will:
Hit 70% of the time
Crit 20% of the time on Slide Spells.

That makes:

Level 2 18 point damage base spells worth (without MeC):
(18 + SB=30)*( 0.7 + 3*0.2 ) = 62 points of damage
Compare with Magic Missile, which is worth: 8+10+30 = 48
So it's worth ~25% more damage, but more swingy.

What about spell swapping into Acid Ray instead of Magic Missile (without MeC):
MM = 48
Acid Ray: (12 + SB=30)*(0.7 + 3*0.2) = 55
Slightly more on average - maybe not enough to give up the consistency.



Question:

If a Slide Spell is doubled with MeC, and scores a Crit, is the value of MeC's boost tripled in the the result?


E.g. would you calculate a MeC'ed Ray of Shock as:

(18 base + 18 base from MeC + SB=30)*3 for crit = 216
Or is it:
(18 base + SB=30)*3 for crit + 18 from MeC = 162
?


I think you're being overly generous on the percentage chance to Crit for most Wizards who hate to slide anyway. Then factor in competition from all the other melee classes trying to do the same thing.


I'm using VTD's system, which is at least unambiguous.

I agree in the physical dungeon all the estimates (Wizards and non) probably drop.
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