TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final!

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
TLDR

Suggested Relic
Mad Evoker's Necklace
Improved Mad Evoking - 5 HP - doubles the base damage of all spells cast this turn
Improved Spell Checks - +3 base damage on a failed skill check, +9 base damage on a successful skill check. Spell slides gain the +9 damage if they successfully hit.


Suggested Legendary
Jeffagorgon's Crazed Evoker's Amulet
Occam's Razor = 3 HP - doubles the damage of all spells cast this turn (base and bonus)
Perfected Spell Checks - +6 base damage on a failed skill check, +12 base damage on a successful skill check. Spell slides gain the +12 damage if they successfully hit.
Perfect Accuracy = Spell Slides critical on a 19-20

This I like. A lot. I'd leave Occam's Razor at 5HP since the power expansion is to include bonus damage-honestly, I'd even be OK pushing it back to 10HP at that point.

This is the first Legendary for us that I've seen suggested that I wouldn't hesitate to build.

Yeah I wasn't sure on dropping the damage or not. I think I'd leave it at 5HP cost on the legendary. Makes no sense to bump the damage back up from relic to legendary.

Yeah, I agree it probably shouldn't be increased, but I could understand the reason if it was. Either way, I'd build that token.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For my back of the envelope math, a BiS Monk has a melee damage + weapon damage of 45, and does 2.2x that amount per round (VTD rolls, 19-20 crits). So I'm looking at the top of the damage pyramid being 99 damage a round.

990 over 10 rounds.

Let's compare with Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973

Wizard is dealing ~ the same of the Monk while being more or less out of gas (one Burning Hands left).

With less HP, worse saves, less AC, paying 50 HP to do it, no built in class features like Diamond Body, stunning fist, deflect missiles, etc. (+2 damage with wands).

To get this build you have to give up hands, wrists, and charm for Cabal set - or you take away 129 points of damage from 3 level 0 spells to do 85% of Monks.

How would this work if one adjusted the numbers for regular TD. And set the crit values to say, 10% (which I feel is high)?

Also, I too want wizards to get a token that feels legendary, and am not sure this is it.

Sure, I can give you an easy formula for regular TD:

The back of the envelope Monk damage is just:

# rounds * 2 * (35 melee damage + 10 average weapon damage) * ( H + 2*C )

Where H is your estimate of the per puck non-crit hit percentage, and C is you estimate of the per puck crit percentage.

So, if you think each individual puck of yours hits 50% of the time, and crits 10% of the time (and misses 40% of the time), then your 10 round damage estimate would be:

10 * 2 * ( 35 + 10 ) * ( 0.5 * 2*0.1 ) = 630.

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The suggested update to spell checks would give +3/+6 at relic and +6/+12 base damage at Relic and Legendary in my proposal.

There's nothing to give us the cabal 1/room ability but I'd definitely support making the necklace a piece of the Cabal set.

Charm of Spell Swapping seems like something more in line with the spellbooks next year.

Do you have an overall thought on the suggested relic/legendary I posted?

Just read it. My overall thought is that yes, I would build it. it is worthy of losing my Charm Necklace, although it doesn't take away all the headaches of doing so. And while I have no problem with MEC or the versions you suggest, I'm certain one or two people out there might feel it is too much. Although, the only person's opinion that really counts is Jeff's.

Agreed.

I'm sure there are people who will scream that it is too much. We hear it every time a Wizard token is created.

As a Wizard main the suggested Legendary would be a guaranteed damage upgrade over existing options and would cause changes in game play and/or hard decisions on what tokens to unequip depending on what your current necklace is. That seems like a good place for the numbers to be.

It's not PERFECT and it doesn't give every Wizard what they want but I think it's as close as we are going to get. Especially considering we have, likely, 2 revision windows left. Ultimately we can't afford another back to the drawing board movement at this point.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For my back of the envelope math, a BiS Monk has a melee damage + weapon damage of 45, and does 2.2x that amount per round (VTD rolls, 19-20 crits). So I'm looking at the top of the damage pyramid being 99 damage a round.

990 over 10 rounds.

Let's compare with Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973

Wizard is dealing ~ the same of the Monk while being more or less out of gas (one Burning Hands left).

With less HP, worse saves, less AC, paying 50 HP to do it, no built in class features like Diamond Body, stunning fist, deflect missiles, etc. (+2 damage with wands).

To get this build you have to give up hands, wrists, and charm for Cabal set - or you take away 129 points of damage from 3 level 0 spells to do 85% of Monks.

I also have issue with the barbarian damage you apply. You use +45 but they can get to more than +60 so if you're using every piece of equipment available (NOT available to most players) then you should correct your assumption. Back of the envelope math puts the Monk at another +150Dmg

I'm not understanding you?

My comparison here is vs. Monk (no Barbarians allowed in the Wizards tower since... the incident... ).

Barbarians do hit harder per puck that monks for sure! But they only get 1 puck, not 2.

I'm not sure how to reasonably get the Monk melee damage bonus up above 35 or so (without Bardsong, Consumables). Maybe you can push it to 40 - I don't think you can get it up above 50 and definitely not to 60. NOTE: I could be wrong about this - I just don't see how yet. Also, I'm assuming Bracers of Guided Strike, 4 nuggets, and CoA in the Monk build.

It's unfortunate to lose the spell book idea - I really liked that concept because it would allow a wizard to be more of a utility belt character - ready for whatever comes up (damage types, etc..)

I don't support getting rid of skill checks for wizards through this. I would rather go the other direction and have a massive bonus to damage for getting the skill check correct. Yes, we tend to get the checks right and it does slow combat slightly but both of those issues can easily be solved.

I preferred the prior version a bit more but would be ok with this version.

Fred

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The suggested update to spell checks would give +3/+6 at relic and +6/+12 base damage at Relic and Legendary in my proposal.

There's nothing to give us the cabal 1/room ability but I'd definitely support making the necklace a piece of the Cabal set.

Charm of Spell Swapping seems like something more in line with the spellbooks next year.

Do you have an overall thought on the suggested relic/legendary I posted?

Just read it. My overall thought is that yes, I would build it. it is worthy of losing my Charm Necklace, although it doesn't take away all the headaches of doing so. And while I have no problem with MEC or the versions you suggest, I'm certain one or two people out there might feel it is too much. Although, the only person's opinion that really counts is Jeff's.

Agreed.

I'm sure there are people who will scream that it is too much. We hear it every time a Wizard token is created.

As a Wizard main the suggested Legendary would be a guaranteed damage upgrade over existing options and would cause changes in game play and/or hard decisions on what tokens to unequip depending on what your current necklace is. That seems like a good place for the numbers to be.

It's not PERFECT and it doesn't give every Wizard what they want but I think it's as close as we are going to get. Especially considering we have, likely, 2 revision windows left. Ultimately we can't afford another back to the drawing board movement at this point.

Yep, on several fronts.
We are running out of time, and it probably is as close as we can get. But it does add the kind of damage I feel is necessary to consider it "legendary". It also achieves Jeff's stated goal of making these legendary tokens feel epic. Anything less than this are we're back to, "is it even worth building?"

Dave wrote: Adding MEC to the legendary recovers 1/3 of what we lose. Go the rest of the way. Add Spell Swapping ability to the token and if you want to improve it, allow swapping for same level spell or lower (last part optional). Then make it a Medallion of the Cabal. Yes, make it a fourth Cabal item, but still only require that 3 of the 4 be equipped to acheive the FA spell cast once per room. Then add spell damage to the equation; something like +3 at the relic level and +5 at the legendary level to help compensate for loss of MoMM.

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter .

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For my back of the envelope math, a BiS Monk has a melee damage + weapon damage of 45, and does 2.2x that amount per round (VTD rolls, 19-20 crits). So I'm looking at the top of the damage pyramid being 99 damage a round.

990 over 10 rounds.

Let's compare with Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973

Wizard is dealing ~ the same of the Monk while being more or less out of gas (one Burning Hands left).

With less HP, worse saves, less AC, paying 50 HP to do it, no built in class features like Diamond Body, stunning fist, deflect missiles, etc. (+2 damage with wands).

To get this build you have to give up hands, wrists, and charm for Cabal set - or you take away 129 points of damage from 3 level 0 spells to do 85% of Monks.

I also have issue with the barbarian damage you apply. You use +45 but they can get to more than +60 so if you're using every piece of equipment available (NOT available to most players) then you should correct your assumption. Back of the envelope math puts the Monk at another +150Dmg

I'm not understanding you?

My comparison here is vs. Monk (no Barbarians allows in the Wizards tower since... the incident ).

Barbarians do hit harder per puck that monks for sure! But they only get 1 puck, not 2.

I'm not sure how to reasonably get the Monk melee damage bonus up above 35 or so (without Bardsong, Consumables). Maybe you can push it to 40 - I don't think you can get it up above 50 and definitely not to 60. NOTE: I could be wrong about this - I just don't see how yet. Also, I'm assuming Bracers of Guided Strike, 4 nuggets, and CoA in the Monk build.

YOu keep mentioning four nuggets. There's silver, gold and plat this year, right? Is there one I'm missing?

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The suggested update to spell checks would give +3/+6 at relic and +6/+12 base damage at Relic and Legendary in my proposal.

There's nothing to give us the cabal 1/room ability but I'd definitely support making the necklace a piece of the Cabal set.

Charm of Spell Swapping seems like something more in line with the spellbooks next year.

Do you have an overall thought on the suggested relic/legendary I posted?

Just read it. My overall thought is that yes, I would build it. it is worthy of losing my Charm Necklace, although it doesn't take away all the headaches of doing so. And while I have no problem with MEC or the versions you suggest, I'm certain one or two people out there might feel it is too much. Although, the only person's opinion that really counts is Jeff's.

Agreed.

I'm sure there are people who will scream that it is too much. We hear it every time a Wizard token is created.

As a Wizard main the suggested Legendary would be a guaranteed damage upgrade over existing options and would cause changes in game play and/or hard decisions on what tokens to unequip depending on what your current necklace is. That seems like a good place for the numbers to be.

It's not PERFECT and it doesn't give every Wizard what they want but I think it's as close as we are going to get. Especially considering we have, likely, 2 revision windows left. Ultimately we can't afford another back to the drawing board movement at this point.

Yep, on several fronts.
We are running out of time, and it probably is as close as we can get. But it does add the kind of damage I feel is necessary to consider it "legendary". It also achieves Jeff's stated goal of making these legendary tokens feel epic. Anything less than this are we're back to, "is it even worth building?"

It could just go back closer to version 2, which people liked a fair amount:

+2 spells at each level as a FA.

Instead of Spellbook/familiar bake in MeC and the 5 HP discount.

Maybe tack on a 1/room MeC doubles base of all spells in a round, or a 1/game MeC doubles all base and bonus for spells in a round.

NightGod wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For my back of the envelope math, a BiS Monk has a melee damage + weapon damage of 45, and does 2.2x that amount per round (VTD rolls, 19-20 crits). So I'm looking at the top of the damage pyramid being 99 damage a round.

990 over 10 rounds.

Let's compare with Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973

Wizard is dealing ~ the same of the Monk while being more or less out of gas (one Burning Hands left).

With less HP, worse saves, less AC, paying 50 HP to do it, no built in class features like Diamond Body, stunning fist, deflect missiles, etc. (+2 damage with wands).

To get this build you have to give up hands, wrists, and charm for Cabal set - or you take away 129 points of damage from 3 level 0 spells to do 85% of Monks.

I also have issue with the barbarian damage you apply. You use +45 but they can get to more than +60 so if you're using every piece of equipment available (NOT available to most players) then you should correct your assumption. Back of the envelope math puts the Monk at another +150Dmg

I'm not understanding you?

My comparison here is vs. Monk (no Barbarians allows in the Wizards tower since... the incident ).

Barbarians do hit harder per puck that monks for sure! But they only get 1 puck, not 2.

I'm not sure how to reasonably get the Monk melee damage bonus up above 35 or so (without Bardsong, Consumables). Maybe you can push it to 40 - I don't think you can get it up above 50 and definitely not to 60. NOTE: I could be wrong about this - I just don't see how yet. Also, I'm assuming Bracers of Guided Strike, 4 nuggets, and CoA in the Monk build.

YOu keep mentioning four nuggets. There's silver, gold and plat this year, right? Is there one I'm missing?

No - I just can't count right. Because of ...the incident...

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The suggested update to spell checks would give +3/+6 at relic and +6/+12 base damage at Relic and Legendary in my proposal.

There's nothing to give us the cabal 1/room ability but I'd definitely support making the necklace a piece of the Cabal set.

Charm of Spell Swapping seems like something more in line with the spellbooks next year.

Do you have an overall thought on the suggested relic/legendary I posted?

Just read it. My overall thought is that yes, I would build it. it is worthy of losing my Charm Necklace, although it doesn't take away all the headaches of doing so. And while I have no problem with MEC or the versions you suggest, I'm certain one or two people out there might feel it is too much. Although, the only person's opinion that really counts is Jeff's.

Agreed.

I'm sure there are people who will scream that it is too much. We hear it every time a Wizard token is created.

As a Wizard main the suggested Legendary would be a guaranteed damage upgrade over existing options and would cause changes in game play and/or hard decisions on what tokens to unequip depending on what your current necklace is. That seems like a good place for the numbers to be.

It's not PERFECT and it doesn't give every Wizard what they want but I think it's as close as we are going to get. Especially considering we have, likely, 2 revision windows left. Ultimately we can't afford another back to the drawing board movement at this point.

Yep, on several fronts.
We are running out of time, and it probably is as close as we can get. But it does add the kind of damage I feel is necessary to consider it "legendary". It also achieves Jeff's stated goal of making these legendary tokens feel epic. Anything less than this are we're back to, "is it even worth building?"

It could just go back closer to version 2, which people liked a fair amount:

+2 spells at each level as a FA.

Instead of Spellbook/familiar bake in MeC and the 5 HP discount.

Maybe tack on a 1/room MeC doubles base of all spells in a round, or a 1/game MeC doubles all base and bonus for spells in a round.

I like the idea, +1 FA each spell level at the Relic +1 more FA each level at Legendary

I'd want the MEC upgrades permanent vs 1/room. No other class has limitations like that on their tokens. We could stop supporting limitations on Wizard tokens.

all that being said I do not see Jeff bringing back the FA spells, they were corroded away a revision at a time. I think we need to just accept that they are gone and look towards maximizing what we've got to work with.