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TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final!

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #49

I like these wizard medallions.

I have been enjoying playing wizard sometimes the past few years, but I wouldn't say wizard is my primary class. So, I regularly fail skill checks and I don't use MEC.

So, I really like the auto-succeed and bonus damage. And with the MEC effect as well, this relic is a big upgrade for me, in terms of damage (even over mystic mouth).

On the downside. It doesn't feel as fun*. But I am okay with that. I will have two wizard builds; one with the relic and the other with mystic mouth (which will also be good in case one of my kids wants to play wizard too, in a few years).

On the legendary, I don't really like the slide crit bit. Maybe give the skill check bonus to ALL spells?

*Doing wand damage as my free action every round lets me play with trying odd strategies; such as bumping with dagger of arcane luck.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #50

Auto skill checks are a terrible choice that water down what makes TD special. I like everything else, but would ask that this be removed from the token.

Perhaps improve the +damage if you make a skill check if you think removing the auto skill checks makes the item not powerful enough?
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #51

I definitely want to see the auto skill check removed, it's part of spellcasting in TD that you make checks for extra damage.

I suggested the +3/+6 for spell checks (3 on fail 6 on success) to accomodate players who auto fail skill checks while providing a better benefit for players who are actively performing their skill checks.

I suggested adding the +6 damage to the base of spell slides to keep sliding spells and skill check spells in the same rough area of damage so level 1 spells do not overcast all level 2 spells based on the spell design.


I thank kurt and the others for their comments, it's good to get all perspectives.

That being said we have statements from non Wizard main players saying they like the token because it removes things they aren't good at (doing skill checks)

I don't think that is the correct direction for the class legendary token to be going, I think the group of players that it should aim to be most accepted by is the ones who play Wizard as main class and the ones who play no other class.


We've had specific gripes about the Mad Evoker's Charm since the day it was created. We constantly have to remind other classes that the Mad Evoker's does not boost 2 spells in 1 round and we constantly have to remind them that it only boosts base damage on spells. That is due to the Mad Evoker's Charm being the only token in the game with these types of restrictions.

If the goal of this design is to bring Wizards up to a better space in the damage area due to it currently being lower than it should be these two changes should help with that greatly.

Being that was the reason given by Jeff for moving to the Mad Evoker this design round and abandoning the spellbook till 2022 let's get those two limitations on the Mad Evoker's Charm removed
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #52

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I definitely want to see the auto skill check removed, it's part of spellcasting in TD that you make checks for extra damage.

I suggested the +3/+6 for spell checks (3 on fail 6 on success) to accomodate players who auto fail skill checks while providing a better benefit for players who are actively performing their skill checks.

I suggested adding the +6 damage to the base of spell slides to keep sliding spells and skill check spells in the same rough area of damage so level 1 spells do not overcast all level 2 spells based on the spell design.


I thank kurt and the others for their comments, it's good to get all perspectives.

That being said we have statements from non Wizard main players saying they like the token because it removes things they aren't good at (doing skill checks)

I don't think that is the correct direction for the class legendary token to be going, I think the group of players that it should aim to be most accepted by is the ones who play Wizard as main class and the ones who play no other class.


We've had specific gripes about the Mad Evoker's Charm since the day it was created. We constantly have to remind other classes that the Mad Evoker's does not boost 2 spells in 1 round and we constantly have to remind them that it only boosts base damage on spells. That is due to the Mad Evoker's Charm being the only token in the game with these types of restrictions.

If the goal of this design is to bring Wizards up to a better space in the damage area due to it currently being lower than it should be these two changes should help with that greatly.

Being that was the reason given by Jeff for moving to the Mad Evoker this design round and abandoning the spellbook till 2022 let's get those two limitations on the Mad Evoker's Charm removed


What do the numbers look like with those two limitations removed?
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #53

OrionW wrote: Auto skill checks are a terrible choice that water down what makes TD special. I like everything else, but would ask that this be removed from the token.

Perhaps improve the +damage if you make a skill check if you think removing the auto skill checks makes the item not powerful enough?


I'd agree - since Auto-Succeed was considered unacceptable for everyone on a UR last year, it should be equally unacceptable in this case.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #54

no idea. not in the headspace to do the math today. I assume Matt Hayward will.

I've always been bummed that the Mad Evoker's Charm required a large HP expense to trigger and it didn't push the triggering Wizard over the rop on damage for the round against players that didn't sacrifice health to trigger it. Always thought if you were sacrificing your life to use it the boost should be large.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #55

I like doing the skill test. I get that it can slow down combat, but it's definitely one of the things I enjoy.

I also don't really care for sliding as a wizard. I'm sure the numbers of this are fine, but that's not really my area of expertise. I like that it'll be an alternative to the MEC, as I don't have one of those yet.

Could maybe it boost the damage on skill test spells by 3 and still allow for the skill test instead?
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #56

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Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
TLDR

Suggested Relic
Mad Evoker's Necklace
Improved Mad Evoking - 5 HP - doubles the base damage of all spells cast this turn
Improved Spell Checks - +3 base damage on a failed skill check, +9 base damage on a successful skill check. Spell slides gain the +9 damage if they successfully hit.


Suggested Legendary
Jeffagorgon's Crazed Evoker's Amulet
Occam's Razor = 3 HP - doubles the damage of all spells cast this turn (base and bonus)
Perfected Spell Checks - +6 base damage on a failed skill check, +12 base damage on a successful skill check. Spell slides gain the +12 damage if they successfully hit.
Perfect Accuracy = Spell Slides critical on a 19-20

This I like. A lot. I'd leave Occam's Razor at 5HP since the power expansion is to include bonus damage-honestly, I'd even be OK pushing it back to 10HP at that point.

This is the first Legendary for us that I've seen suggested that I wouldn't hesitate to build.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #57

Alright, not too many more posts since I left for my walk. There are a few good ideas out there and a lot to think about. I'm just going to throw my thoughts out there (as I tend to do at times).

There is no other legendary I've acquired that caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it was better than what i was giving up. Why does it have to be this one? First, too much wizard ability has been tied up in the neck slot either directly through MoMM or indirectly through the Charm Necklace. People giving up those items shouldn't feel like they're losing almost as much as they gain.

Adding MEC to the legendary recovers 1/3 of what we lose. Go the rest of the way. Add Spell Swapping ability to the token and if you want to improve it, allow swapping for same level spell or lower (last part optional). Then make it a Medallion of the Cabal. Yes, make it a fourth Cabal item, but still only require that 3 of the 4 be equipped to acheive the FA spell cast once per room. Then add spell damage to the equation; something like +3 at the relic level and +5 at the legendary level to help compensate for loss of MoMM. This allows various wizard paths to converge at the legendary level and each have access to all the "tricks of the trade". You will probably need to reprint the other Cabal items no later than next year.

Another benefit is that newer players can focus on the transmute path and not worry about waiting until all the cool wizard URs are reprinted sometime over the next 10 years. Yes, I'm sure Bards, Clerics and Druids might be upset they didn't get a 4th Cabal item, but they don't lose anything. In fact, if more wizards start equipping Cabal items they will indirectly benefit. It will also breathe new life into that set.

In the end, I no longer need to equip MEC, CoSS or Charm of the Cabal (optional), thus not making me feel like I'm losing anything in the upgrade. I will still gain some benefits worth the cost of the transmutes. I also gain more flexibility with the Cabal set. Maybe I'll find a way to equip the Charm and replace the Gloves with Blessed Tempest and gain a little more spell damage.

Anyway, this is something I'd be happy to add to my build at the cost of a relic and legendary.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #58

NightGod wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
TLDR

Suggested Relic
Mad Evoker's Necklace
Improved Mad Evoking - 5 HP - doubles the base damage of all spells cast this turn
Improved Spell Checks - +3 base damage on a failed skill check, +9 base damage on a successful skill check. Spell slides gain the +9 damage if they successfully hit.


Suggested Legendary
Jeffagorgon's Crazed Evoker's Amulet
Occam's Razor = 3 HP - doubles the damage of all spells cast this turn (base and bonus)
Perfected Spell Checks - +6 base damage on a failed skill check, +12 base damage on a successful skill check. Spell slides gain the +12 damage if they successfully hit.
Perfect Accuracy = Spell Slides critical on a 19-20

This I like. A lot. I'd leave Occam's Razor at 5HP since the power expansion is to include bonus damage-honestly, I'd even be OK pushing it back to 10HP at that point.

This is the first Legendary for us that I've seen suggested that I wouldn't hesitate to build.


Yeah I wasn't sure on dropping the damage or not. I think I'd leave it at 5HP cost on the legendary. Makes no sense to bump the damage back up from relic to legendary.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #59

Dave wrote: Alright, not too many more posts since I left for my walk. There are a few good ideas out there and a lot to think about. I'm just going to throw my thoughts out there (as I tend to do at times).

There is no other legendary I've acquired that caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it was better than what i was giving up. Why does it have to be this one? First, too much wizard ability has been tied up in the neck slot either directly through MoMM or indirectly through the Charm Necklace. People giving up those items shouldn't feel like they're losing almost as much as they gain.

Adding MEC to the legendary recovers 1/3 of what we lose. Go the rest of the way. Add Spell Swapping ability to the token and if you want to improve it, allow swapping for same level spell or lower (last part optional). Then make it a Medallion of the Cabal. Yes, make it a fourth Cabal item, but still only require that 3 of the 4 be equipped to acheive the FA spell cast once per room. Then add spell damage to the equation; something like +3 at the relic level and +5 at the legendary level to help compensate for loss of MoMM. This allows various wizard paths to converge at the legendary level and each have access to all the "tricks of the trade". You will probably need to reprint the other Cabal items no later than next year.

Another benefit is that newer players can focus on the transmute path and not worry about waiting until all the cool wizard URs are reprinted sometime over the next 10 years. Yes, I'm sure Bards, Clerics and Druids might be upset they didn't get a 4th Cabal item, but they don't lose anything. In fact, if more wizards start equipping Cabal items they will indirectly benefit. It will also breathe new life into that set.

In the end, I no longer need to equip MEC, CoSS or Charm of the Cabal (optional), thus not making me feel like I'm losing anything in the upgrade. I will still gain some benefits worth the cost of the transmutes. I also gain more flexibility with the Cabal set. Maybe I'll find a way to equip the Charm and replace the Gloves with Blessed Tempest and gain a little more spell damage.

Anyway, this is something I'd be happy to add to my build at the cost of a relic and legendary.


The suggested update to spell checks would give +3/+6 at relic and +6/+12 base damage at Relic and Legendary in my proposal.

There's nothing to give us the cabal 1/room ability but I'd definitely support making the necklace a piece of the Cabal set.

Charm of Spell Swapping seems like something more in line with the spellbooks next year.


Do you have an overall thought on the suggested relic/legendary I posted?
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #60

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The suggested update to spell checks would give +3/+6 at relic and +6/+12 base damage at Relic and Legendary in my proposal.

There's nothing to give us the cabal 1/room ability but I'd definitely support making the necklace a piece of the Cabal set.

Charm of Spell Swapping seems like something more in line with the spellbooks next year.

Do you have an overall thought on the suggested relic/legendary I posted?


Just read it. My overall thought is that yes, I would build it. it is worthy of losing my Charm Necklace, although it doesn't take away all the headaches of doing so. And while I have no problem with MEC or the versions you suggest, I'm certain one or two people out there might feel it is too much. Although, the only person's opinion that really counts is Jeff's.
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