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TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final!

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #37

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Dave wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote: ..... try to die now Dave. :laugh:



(Lengthy analysis later)


Challenge accepted.


Challenge accepted. You are not dying on my watch. ;)


Going to wear Psyferre's Spectacles on your Dwarf Fighter just to use healing scrolls on Dave?


Or I take the Druid build and my son takes the Dwarf/Fighter build.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #38

Matthew Hayward wrote: For my back of the envelope math, a BiS Monk has a melee damage + weapon damage of 45, and does 2.2x that amount per round (VTD rolls, 19-20 crits). So I'm looking at the top of the damage pyramid being 99 damage a round.

990 over 10 rounds.

Let's compare with Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973

Wizard is dealing ~ the same of the Monk while being more or less out of gas (one Burning Hands left).

With less HP, worse saves, less AC, paying 50 HP to do it, no built in class features like Diamond Body, stunning fist, deflect missiles, etc. (+2 damage with wands).

To get this build you have to give up hands, wrists, and charm for Cabal set - or you take away 129 points of damage from 3 level 0 spells to do 85% of Monks.


Hopefully the Monk and Ranger both get revised so they only add damage bonuses to one attack instead of both. That would bring them back in synch with other melee classes.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #39

Jeff, now that I look at the synergy with Mad Evoker's Charm ability, they do still seem overpowered, although not as overpowered as before. In addition to doubling the base power, the Legendary adds +20 to all skill check spells with Mad Evoker's Effect, which is a major increase.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #40

Am going to have to think about the Wizard path some more. (my daily 2 hour walk is coming up soon). Nothing about it screams "terrible" to me. But what am I gain.

I gain nothing at the UR level if I already have MEC.
At the relic level I lose 5 less hp when using MEC, but part of the fun of MEC is taking the damage and challenging the party to keep me alive. So that is almost a negative for me, certainly not much of a plus.
I gain a charm slot and 3 hp damage on level 0 and 1 spells, but lose 3 charms slots from charm necklace.
I've failed two skill tests in the last 3 years, so other than slightly helping speed up combat, I really don't see that as a plus. Overall, it feels like a wash, but I feel like I have more flexibility if I just keep the Charm Necklace.
At the legendary level, even with the expanded crit range I just don't feel like I will be hitting very many crits. And I now have a chance to miss completely. So its unlikely I will even try. As stated, the MM powers don't do much for me and might be considered negative.
The skill test bonus is now at a level where the token is worth something to me. Yet a magic missile still isn't quite at the power of a fireball, so that's good.
I have to think about this. The legendary sort of feels like a boost I'd want at a relic level, so is it worth the cost. I think overall, my damage levels will still be close to BIS if I just skip this altogether and my overall build will be more balanced.
Personally, I feel like you should abandon building this around MEC and just give straight up spell damage bonus. Maybe add 1 or 2 spell FA at the legendary level. Just my current thoughts. Will be thinking about it more.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #41

Relic does feel a bit weak to me. Moving MEC from Charm to Neck and reducing caster's HP loss by 5 likely wouldn't fly as a UR by itself. So the rest doesn't feel like it quite gets it to Relic. Maybe add 1/room cast a 0-level spell for free (which could then also be a FA at Legendary)?
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #42

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, now that I look at the synergy with Mad Evoker's Charm ability, they do still seem overpowered, although not as overpowered as before. In addition to doubling the base power, the Legendary adds +20 to all skill check spells with Mad Evoker's Effect, which is a major increase.


Previous version of the tokens added +45 each turn (free action and standard action). Now it is less than half of what it was. You also loss the additional free action spells that ramped up the damage so much over 5 rounds. To me this is a good middle ground.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #43

Matthew Hayward wrote: For my back of the envelope math, a BiS Monk has a melee damage + weapon damage of 45, and does 2.2x that amount per round (VTD rolls, 19-20 crits). So I'm looking at the top of the damage pyramid being 99 damage a round.

990 over 10 rounds.

Let's compare with Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973

Wizard is dealing ~ the same of the Monk while being more or less out of gas (one Burning Hands left).

With less HP, worse saves, less AC, paying 50 HP to do it, no built in class features like Diamond Body, stunning fist, deflect missiles, etc. (+2 damage with wands).

To get this build you have to give up hands, wrists, and charm for Cabal set - or you take away 129 points of damage from 3 level 0 spells to do 85% of Monks.


How would this work if one adjusted the numbers for regular TD. And set the crit values to say, 10% (which I feel is high)?

Also, I too want wizards to get a token that feels legendary, and am not sure this is it.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #44

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm trying to analyze the Relic, because it does feel a bit light to me.

A. There is some precedent for combining two same slotted URs into a new slot at Relic:
* Charm of Awakened Synergy
* The fighter Relic is Stu's + Medallion of Valhalla + 1 STR + Reflex bonus for sword and board users

So I'm looking at: Is the Wizard Relic the sum of two neck slot URs.

Ability 1: MeC but instead take only 5 damage. That's a Charm slot UR with a boon. Not a neck slot UR, IMO.

Ability 2: Autosucceed Skill checks and +3 damage on your level 0 and 1 spells. Feels UR-ey in it's complexity, but compare to rare +2 damage to melee/ranged/spell from Amulet of Shock which adds 2 to all your spells and also helps you out in random other areas. This wouldn't be a popular UR. I Feel it's UR-.

So overall my sense is this is two bad neck URs combined. The Fighter one is two very strong neck URs combined with a boost that is highly desirable (+1 STR), and a random other boost (Reflex Saves).


I think the Relic is looking a bit dull.


Would you feel my suggested change would make up for it?

(adding +3/+9 on skill checks on fail/succeed. Remove the auto succeed and allow MEC to trigger on all spells in the turn)


I thought the point was to get away from Wizards wanting to do the skill check, in the interest of not slowing down combat?
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #45

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm trying to analyze the Relic, because it does feel a bit light to me.

A. There is some precedent for combining two same slotted URs into a new slot at Relic:
* Charm of Awakened Synergy
* The fighter Relic is Stu's + Medallion of Valhalla + 1 STR + Reflex bonus for sword and board users

So I'm looking at: Is the Wizard Relic the sum of two neck slot URs.

Ability 1: MeC but instead take only 5 damage. That's a Charm slot UR with a boon. Not a neck slot UR, IMO.

Ability 2: Autosucceed Skill checks and +3 damage on your level 0 and 1 spells. Feels UR-ey in it's complexity, but compare to rare +2 damage to melee/ranged/spell from Amulet of Shock which adds 2 to all your spells and also helps you out in random other areas. This wouldn't be a popular UR. I Feel it's UR-.

So overall my sense is this is two bad neck URs combined. The Fighter one is two very strong neck URs combined with a boost that is highly desirable (+1 STR), and a random other boost (Reflex Saves).


I think the Relic is looking a bit dull.


Would you feel my suggested change would make up for it?

(adding +3/+9 on skill checks on fail/succeed. Remove the auto succeed and allow MEC to trigger on all spells in the turn)


I thought the point was to get away from Wizards wanting to do the skill check, in the interest of not slowing down combat?


Ironically, we had a pretty neat UR last year that let classes auto-succeed skill tests, and there was so much opposition to it that it had to be dropped.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #46

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For my back of the envelope math, a BiS Monk has a melee damage + weapon damage of 45, and does 2.2x that amount per round (VTD rolls, 19-20 crits). So I'm looking at the top of the damage pyramid being 99 damage a round.

990 over 10 rounds.

Let's compare with Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973

Wizard is dealing ~ the same of the Monk while being more or less out of gas (one Burning Hands left).

With less HP, worse saves, less AC, paying 50 HP to do it, no built in class features like Diamond Body, stunning fist, deflect missiles, etc. (+2 damage with wands).

To get this build you have to give up hands, wrists, and charm for Cabal set - or you take away 129 points of damage from 3 level 0 spells to do 85% of Monks.


How would this work if one adjusted the numbers for regular TD. And set the crit values to say, 10% (which I feel is high)?

Also, I too want wizards to get a token that feels legendary, and am not sure this is it.


For me it falls short of legendary.

It also sets the bar/limit on level of tweaks, if any, for earlier legendary.

Instance, another caster class would get auto skill checks, comparable increase in bonus and crit on slide spells that have have same range and multiplier offset to something less from existing powers.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #47

Matthew Hayward wrote: For my back of the envelope math, a BiS Monk has a melee damage + weapon damage of 45, and does 2.2x that amount per round (VTD rolls, 19-20 crits). So I'm looking at the top of the damage pyramid being 99 damage a round.

990 over 10 rounds.

Let's compare with Wizard using the new Legendary, using MeC each round, with Cabal Set and RoSS to get the most spells out, and Crown of Expertise.

SB = Spell bonus below, call it 30 for BiS wizard. If you don't like 30 plug in your own number.

L0 = Level 0 spells - I have 7 of these (1 from swapped Acid Ray)

L1 = Level 1 Magic Missile : I have 7 of these (4 from swaps)
Let's just spell swap all Level 2 spells and Lesser Maze into magic missile - I'll worry about crits once we understand what on earth is going on with "of focus" items and slid spells - because no joke my slid spell damage bonus is like +10 I think

L3 = Lightning Storm is worth: 20*2 + SB
I have one of these on the card, one in RoSS, and one in Crown of Expertise

Room 1 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 2 - 3 rounds:
Round 1: L1 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0
Round 3: L1

Room 3 - 4 rounds:
Round 1: L3 + Cabal L0
Round 2: L1 + Legendary L0 ('m out of level 1 spells)
Roudn 3: RoSS L3 + L0 (I'm out of spells except Burning Hands)
Round 4: L3 from Crown of Expertise

So over the course of the dungeon I cast:

7 MeC-ed Magic Missile = 7* ( (8+10)*2 + 30 ) = 462
7 Normal Level 0 spells = 7*( (3+10) + 30 ) = 301
3 MeC-ed Level 3 spells = 3*( 20*2 + 30 ) = 210

Total damage: 973

Wizard is dealing ~ the same of the Monk while being more or less out of gas (one Burning Hands left).

With less HP, worse saves, less AC, paying 50 HP to do it, no built in class features like Diamond Body, stunning fist, deflect missiles, etc. (+2 damage with wands).

To get this build you have to give up hands, wrists, and charm for Cabal set - or you take away 129 points of damage from 3 level 0 spells to do 85% of Monks.


I also have issue with the barbarian damage you apply. You use +45 but they can get to more than +60 so if you're using every piece of equipment available (NOT available to most players) then you should correct your assumption. Back of the envelope math puts the Monk at another +150Dmg
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #48

Arcanist Kolixela
Mad Evoker's Charm except 5HP trigger and doubles all spell damage for the turn.
Spell Checks and Spell Slides add +12 on a successful check. Spell Checks add +6 on a failed or skipped check.
May cast level 0/1/2 spells as a free action 2/room
They later suggested
(adding +3/+9 on skill checks on fail/succeed. Remove the auto succeed and allow MEC to trigger on all spells in the turn)
They later suggested
Suggested Relic
Mad Evoker's Necklace
Improved Mad Evoking - 5 HP - doubles the base damage of all spells cast this turn
Improved Spell Checks - +3 base damage on a failed skill check, +9 base damage on a successful skill check. Spell slides gain the +9 damage if they successfully hit.


Suggested Legendary
Jeffagorgon's Crazed Evoker's Amulet
Occam's Razor = 3 HP - doubles the damage of all spells cast this turn (base and bonus)
Perfected Spell Checks - +6 base damage on a failed skill check, +12 base damage on a successful skill check. Spell slides gain the +12 damage if they successfully hit.
Perfect Accuracy = Spell Slides critical on a 19-20


Dave
I also keep thinking about how wizards would still like our "big bang" in room 7 and how other classes got neat new abilities with their legendary. How about something like "Spellstorm" - Cast two spells as a single action. If you have a FA available you get a third spell in the same round. It costs you 3 spells off your card but gives you that one big attack you've waited to use. You can make it a once per game ability. Just a thought.

Mike Steele
Jeff, thanks for the revision, the Wizard Relic and Legendary seem a lot better now.
The fact that Mike’s happy with it means it’s underpowered. BUT then later he posted:
Jeff, now that I look at the synergy with Mad Evoker's Charm ability, they do still seem overpowered, although not as overpowered as before. In addition to doubling the base power, the Legendary adds +20 to all skill check spells with Mad Evoker's Effect, which is a major increase.
Fiddy
Relic does feel a bit weak to me. Moving MEC from Charm to Neck and reducing caster's HP loss by 5 likely wouldn't fly as a UR by itself. So the rest doesn't feel like it quite gets it to Relic. Maybe add 1/room cast a 0-level spell for free (which could then also be a FA at Legendary)?

TLDR:
I posted last night that I like the Legendary but after sleeping on it I regret that post. I now think it’s underpowered BUT
Wizards – The haters aren’t going to let us get too powerful. Easy fix I think add back the 1 spell per level to the Relic.
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