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TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final!

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #109

edwin wrote: The way I run an Elf Wizard (I have no desire to use MEC. I am not saying that these tokens should remove the MEC portion just like the Ranger legendary that I use and do not take advantage of a companion since I am far less accurate in sliding with two pucks):
- current relic provides a benefit of +6 damage per roughly half the spells I cast.
- current legendary provides the benefit of +10 per roughly half the spells I cast. I also slide last to avoid affecting other good slides and would not aim for a 19-20 unless I chuck the hammer. The FA 0- level spell may be used once or twice early in a run though.

Over a run I would gain around 30 damage for the relic and 112 points of damage for the legendary as a trade off of 3 charms.

This is a different perspective than looking at how much it adds or how it stacks up against other classes damage potential.

Not decided one way or another until the final design is completed before I decide whether to transmute.

This does not account for any other possible changes from 2021 tokens.


With all the focus on MEC, its good to have another perspective. I guess its only hypothetical until the token is finalized, but just curious as to what 3 charms you'd consider sacrificing for the legendary.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #110

After stewing on these tokens more and seeing the ranged damage answers, I have compiled a better collection of my thoughts:

For those saying MEC is already too powerful of a token, let me point some things out. Without Relic/Legendary possible effects, for the Wizard, MEC is -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self) x2
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+9 divided among targets with successful skill test (10 to self)
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
At maximum, if the spells are limited to 1/rd. This leads to +146 to enemies and 140 to self after 14 rounds (with chances to miss AC 15 or fail skill tests for people who don’t want to waste time or don’t have everything memorized). If the Wizard “speeds it up” to the extreme and does 2 spells per round for 7 rounds, it is +101 to enemies and 70 to self.

Elf Wizard -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
Max 119 to enemies and 120 to self over 12 rounds vs 83 to enemies and 60 to self over 6 rounds, with chances for less damage.

For perspective, please remember a considered token was Ring of Sacrifice for 20 damage to an enemy for 10 to self (or an amount of damage that brings the player down to 10 HP). And players were not thrilled with that offer. So, if others wouldn’t use the ring, why is MEC so much more tempting to a class with even less HP than the ones who could have used the ring? Is MEC really that overpowered for doing that over such a long period and after sacrificing so much to self?

Looking at the various passes of the Relic:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/24 base damage, all other spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3)

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC deals 5 less damage to self, all spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), autosucceed skill checks.

Pass 2 (and 3) was by far and away the most powerful, followed by 4, then 1, and now 5 is drastically weaker. I would love heading back in earlier directions, I would love the +9 (in addition to base +3) for successful checks paired with the extra spell boxes and/or cast as a free action, if we are just looking at previous iterations.

Thinking of it as a stand-alone and not comparing to past iterations, I love the some of the other ideas thrown out: MEC, MEC deals 5 less to self, Counts as 1 piece of a set bonus (do we have to limit it to Cabal? I am okay with that if we do, it just feels very restrictive if it is a specific set), +X/+Y damage for failed vs passed skill check (and slid spells get the +Y). I would be thrilled with aar a ist Kolixela’s Relic printed as worded. I would alternatively love adding MEC only deals damage to self if spell hits or choice of which spell for the round is made after determining spell hit for the round. The MEC inclusion will help roughly half of the spells cast, the self damage reduction still helping for roughly half the spells cast, adding damage to skill check spells will add damage to over half of the spells cast but only for players who choose to do the tests. Boosting MEC to affect all spells in a round would be a lovely boost. Replacing the skill test bonus damage with just letting MEC double the spell modifier damage for one or all spells in that round would also be great. Baking in Charm of Spell Swapping or Improved Spell Swapping to trade for same level spell would be a huge boost that feels like a fair trade for losing the scroll effect and is a lot of fun to let the wizard better enjoy planar checks or sliding based on that Wizard’s preference. I absolutely HATE the autosucceed skill test. At that point, every class should just get “autosucceed at your basic attack” so no class wastes time sliding or doing checks and the most interesting pets of every class are removed. I understand many dislike the skill test because of the time crunch (the time crunch on it is less than sliding but more than casting and autofailing), but an autosuccess removes a substantial amount of fun by stripping Wizard of what makes them interesting. This is the strongest aspect of the token I will object to. Please remember how strong opposition was to that effect on the UR.

As for my thoughts on the Legendary:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells, SR -25%, Autohit slide spells, Familiar (slide puck for low to hit and low damage bonus with a low damage wheel, gain minor benefits)

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +2 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, Familiar

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, MoMM, MEC

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/27 base damage, all other spells deal +12 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC only deals 5 to self, all spells deal +7 on successful skill check (in addition to base +3), autosuceed all skill checks, slide spells crit on 19-20, slide spells deal 3x damage on crit, cast 0 level spell as free action 1/room (roughly 3-4x per dungeon, my understanding is only once in Grind)

I guess ranking these, I like Pass 1 best but would have wanted autohit slides removed (even though I secretly love it), Pass 2 second, Pass 3 third, Pass 4 fourth, Pass 5 is my least favorite. It has only gotten progressively less desirable. Least favorite effect is the autosuccess spell check, next least favorite is autohit slides, then the triple crit on slide, then improved crit range on slide, then spell resistance, then the Familiar. The other effects seemed okay. Personally, again, I loved Arcanist Kolixela’s suggestion. I like MEC but only take 2-3 damage to self, MEC only damages self on hit, choose which spell to MEC after seeing results, MEC boosts all spells in round (maybe it even counts as 2 activations of MEC to do this?), (MEC boosts base damage and spell modifier damage is a less desirable effect and would likely not mean reducing the damage to self), counts as 1 piece of a set bonus, +X/+Y damage based on fail vs pass skill check and slid spell gets +Y, or Improved Spell Swapping (or evening regular spell swapping), getting more spell boxes, casting spells as free actions (as spells, not scrolls), and/or maybe getting MoMM + wands nonconsumable to follow with Monk and Druid legendaries (obviously not all of these but some combination). For the slide spells, Wizard has 3 and Elf Wizard has 2 (with the ability for either to Charm of Spell Swapping up to a max or 6 slid spells), so modifying these spells in specific seems like a small bonus that will rarely come up. I can’t speak for all of the Wizards, I know some Wizards do enjoy sliding, but my understanding is most people playing Wizard (especially as a main) are doing it to avoid sliding, so benefitting sliding in specific goes against our primary interest in the class. Another idea for the “fun effect” for the Wizard: can Cast Detect Magic to get Bard or Rogue clue instead (or maybe even to get a rogue box token?)
I play Wizard.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #111

Anthony Barnstable wrote: After stewing on these tokens more and seeing the ranged damage answers, I have compiled a better collection of my thoughts:

For those saying MEC is already too powerful of a token, let me point some things out. Without Relic/Legendary possible effects, for the Wizard, MEC is -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self) x2
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+9 divided among targets with successful skill test (10 to self)
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
At maximum, if the spells are limited to 1/rd. This leads to +146 to enemies and 140 to self after 14 rounds (with chances to miss AC 15 or fail skill tests for people who don’t want to waste time or don’t have everything memorized). If the Wizard “speeds it up” to the extreme and does 2 spells per round for 7 rounds, it is +101 to enemies and 70 to self.

Elf Wizard -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
Max 119 to enemies and 120 to self over 12 rounds vs 83 to enemies and 60 to self over 6 rounds, with chances for less damage.

For perspective, please remember a considered token was Ring of Sacrifice for 20 damage to an enemy for 10 to self (or an amount of damage that brings the player down to 10 HP). And players were not thrilled with that offer. So, if others wouldn’t use the ring, why is MEC so much more tempting to a class with even less HP than the ones who could have used the ring? Is MEC really that overpowered for doing that over such a long period and after sacrificing so much to self?

Looking at the various passes of the Relic:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/24 base damage, all other spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3)

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC deals 5 less damage to self, all spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), autosucceed skill checks.

Pass 2 (and 3) was by far and away the most powerful, followed by 4, then 1, and now 5 is drastically weaker. I would love heading back in earlier directions, I would love the +9 (in addition to base +3) for successful checks paired with the extra spell boxes and/or cast as a free action, if we are just looking at previous iterations.

Thinking of it as a stand-alone and not comparing to past iterations, I love the some of the other ideas thrown out: MEC, MEC deals 5 less to self, Counts as 1 piece of a set bonus (do we have to limit it to Cabal? I am okay with that if we do, it just feels very restrictive if it is a specific set), +X/+Y damage for failed vs passed skill check (and slid spells get the +Y). I would be thrilled with aar a ist Kolixela’s Relic printed as worded. I would alternatively love adding MEC only deals damage to self if spell hits or choice of which spell for the round is made after determining spell hit for the round. The MEC inclusion will help roughly half of the spells cast, the self damage reduction still helping for roughly half the spells cast, adding damage to skill check spells will add damage to over half of the spells cast but only for players who choose to do the tests. Boosting MEC to affect all spells in a round would be a lovely boost. Replacing the skill test bonus damage with just letting MEC double the spell modifier damage for one or all spells in that round would also be great. Baking in Charm of Spell Swapping or Improved Spell Swapping to trade for same level spell would be a huge boost that feels like a fair trade for losing the scroll effect and is a lot of fun to let the wizard better enjoy planar checks or sliding based on that Wizard’s preference. I absolutely HATE the autosucceed skill test. At that point, every class should just get “autosucceed at your basic attack” so no class wastes time sliding or doing checks and the most interesting pets of every class are removed. I understand many dislike the skill test because of the time crunch (the time crunch on it is less than sliding but more than casting and autofailing), but an autosuccess removes a substantial amount of fun by stripping Wizard of what makes them interesting. This is the strongest aspect of the token I will object to. Please remember how strong opposition was to that effect on the UR.

As for my thoughts on the Legendary:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells, SR -25%, Autohit slide spells, Familiar (slide puck for low to hit and low damage bonus with a low damage wheel, gain minor benefits)

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +2 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, Familiar

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, MoMM, MEC

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/27 base damage, all other spells deal +12 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC only deals 5 to self, all spells deal +7 on successful skill check (in addition to base +3), autosuceed all skill checks, slide spells crit on 19-20, slide spells deal 3x damage on crit, cast 0 level spell as free action 1/room (roughly 3-4x per dungeon, my understanding is only once in Grind)

I guess ranking these, I like Pass 1 best but would have wanted autohit slides removed (even though I secretly love it), Pass 2 second, Pass 3 third, Pass 4 fourth, Pass 5 is my least favorite. It has only gotten progressively less desirable. Least favorite effect is the autosuccess spell check, next least favorite is autohit slides, then the triple crit on slide, then improved crit range on slide, then spell resistance, then the Familiar. The other effects seemed okay. Personally, again, I loved Arcanist Kolixela’s suggestion. I like MEC but only take 2-3 damage to self, MEC only damages self on hit, choose which spell to MEC after seeing results, MEC boosts all spells in round (maybe it even counts as 2 activations of MEC to do this?), (MEC boosts base damage and spell modifier damage is a less desirable effect and would likely not mean reducing the damage to self), counts as 1 piece of a set bonus, +X/+Y damage based on fail vs pass skill check and slid spell gets +Y, or Improved Spell Swapping (or evening regular spell swapping), getting more spell boxes, casting spells as free actions (as spells, not scrolls), and/or maybe getting MoMM + wands nonconsumable to follow with Monk and Druid legendaries (obviously not all of these but some combination). For the slide spells, Wizard has 3 and Elf Wizard has 2 (with the ability for either to Charm of Spell Swapping up to a max or 6 slid spells), so modifying these spells in specific seems like a small bonus that will rarely come up. I can’t speak for all of the Wizards, I know some Wizards do enjoy sliding, but my understanding is most people playing Wizard (especially as a main) are doing it to avoid sliding, so benefitting sliding in specific goes against our primary interest in the class. Another idea for the “fun effect” for the Wizard: can Cast Detect Magic to get Bard or Rogue clue instead (or maybe even to get a rogue box token?)


I dont see us getting the clue or treasure tolen as a fun effect...I also feel like the auto succeed from skill test backlash came mostly from a few wizards and a large portion of people not wanting to see wizards get a buff.....(Druids).
Fall down......Go boom!
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #112

I wouldn't even consider trying to steal abilities from another class. That's a Druid UR token thing not Wizard.

The auto succeed skillcheck backlash came from Wizards who actually like the skill check interactions and a portion of people not wanting Wizards to get a buff.

I hope Jeff takes the suggestion of adding a small amount of + spell damage for a failed check and a larger portion for a successful one so that both forms of player gain a benefit.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #113

Adam Guay wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: After stewing on these tokens more and seeing the ranged damage answers, I have compiled a better collection of my thoughts:

For those saying MEC is already too powerful of a token, let me point some things out. Without Relic/Legendary possible effects, for the Wizard, MEC is -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self) x2
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+9 divided among targets with successful skill test (10 to self)
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
At maximum, if the spells are limited to 1/rd. This leads to +146 to enemies and 140 to self after 14 rounds (with chances to miss AC 15 or fail skill tests for people who don’t want to waste time or don’t have everything memorized). If the Wizard “speeds it up” to the extreme and does 2 spells per round for 7 rounds, it is +101 to enemies and 70 to self.

Elf Wizard -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
Max 119 to enemies and 120 to self over 12 rounds vs 83 to enemies and 60 to self over 6 rounds, with chances for less damage.

For perspective, please remember a considered token was Ring of Sacrifice for 20 damage to an enemy for 10 to self (or an amount of damage that brings the player down to 10 HP). And players were not thrilled with that offer. So, if others wouldn’t use the ring, why is MEC so much more tempting to a class with even less HP than the ones who could have used the ring? Is MEC really that overpowered for doing that over such a long period and after sacrificing so much to self?

Looking at the various passes of the Relic:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/24 base damage, all other spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3)

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC deals 5 less damage to self, all spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), autosucceed skill checks.

Pass 2 (and 3) was by far and away the most powerful, followed by 4, then 1, and now 5 is drastically weaker. I would love heading back in earlier directions, I would love the +9 (in addition to base +3) for successful checks paired with the extra spell boxes and/or cast as a free action, if we are just looking at previous iterations.

Thinking of it as a stand-alone and not comparing to past iterations, I love the some of the other ideas thrown out: MEC, MEC deals 5 less to self, Counts as 1 piece of a set bonus (do we have to limit it to Cabal? I am okay with that if we do, it just feels very restrictive if it is a specific set), +X/+Y damage for failed vs passed skill check (and slid spells get the +Y). I would be thrilled with aar a ist Kolixela’s Relic printed as worded. I would alternatively love adding MEC only deals damage to self if spell hits or choice of which spell for the round is made after determining spell hit for the round. The MEC inclusion will help roughly half of the spells cast, the self damage reduction still helping for roughly half the spells cast, adding damage to skill check spells will add damage to over half of the spells cast but only for players who choose to do the tests. Boosting MEC to affect all spells in a round would be a lovely boost. Replacing the skill test bonus damage with just letting MEC double the spell modifier damage for one or all spells in that round would also be great. Baking in Charm of Spell Swapping or Improved Spell Swapping to trade for same level spell would be a huge boost that feels like a fair trade for losing the scroll effect and is a lot of fun to let the wizard better enjoy planar checks or sliding based on that Wizard’s preference. I absolutely HATE the autosucceed skill test. At that point, every class should just get “autosucceed at your basic attack” so no class wastes time sliding or doing checks and the most interesting pets of every class are removed. I understand many dislike the skill test because of the time crunch (the time crunch on it is less than sliding but more than casting and autofailing), but an autosuccess removes a substantial amount of fun by stripping Wizard of what makes them interesting. This is the strongest aspect of the token I will object to. Please remember how strong opposition was to that effect on the UR.

As for my thoughts on the Legendary:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells, SR -25%, Autohit slide spells, Familiar (slide puck for low to hit and low damage bonus with a low damage wheel, gain minor benefits)

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +2 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, Familiar

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, MoMM, MEC

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/27 base damage, all other spells deal +12 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC only deals 5 to self, all spells deal +7 on successful skill check (in addition to base +3), autosuceed all skill checks, slide spells crit on 19-20, slide spells deal 3x damage on crit, cast 0 level spell as free action 1/room (roughly 3-4x per dungeon, my understanding is only once in Grind)

I guess ranking these, I like Pass 1 best but would have wanted autohit slides removed (even though I secretly love it), Pass 2 second, Pass 3 third, Pass 4 fourth, Pass 5 is my least favorite. It has only gotten progressively less desirable. Least favorite effect is the autosuccess spell check, next least favorite is autohit slides, then the triple crit on slide, then improved crit range on slide, then spell resistance, then the Familiar. The other effects seemed okay. Personally, again, I loved Arcanist Kolixela’s suggestion. I like MEC but only take 2-3 damage to self, MEC only damages self on hit, choose which spell to MEC after seeing results, MEC boosts all spells in round (maybe it even counts as 2 activations of MEC to do this?), (MEC boosts base damage and spell modifier damage is a less desirable effect and would likely not mean reducing the damage to self), counts as 1 piece of a set bonus, +X/+Y damage based on fail vs pass skill check and slid spell gets +Y, or Improved Spell Swapping (or evening regular spell swapping), getting more spell boxes, casting spells as free actions (as spells, not scrolls), and/or maybe getting MoMM + wands nonconsumable to follow with Monk and Druid legendaries (obviously not all of these but some combination). For the slide spells, Wizard has 3 and Elf Wizard has 2 (with the ability for either to Charm of Spell Swapping up to a max or 6 slid spells), so modifying these spells in specific seems like a small bonus that will rarely come up. I can’t speak for all of the Wizards, I know some Wizards do enjoy sliding, but my understanding is most people playing Wizard (especially as a main) are doing it to avoid sliding, so benefitting sliding in specific goes against our primary interest in the class. Another idea for the “fun effect” for the Wizard: can Cast Detect Magic to get Bard or Rogue clue instead (or maybe even to get a rogue box token?)


I dont see us getting the clue or treasure tolen as a fun effect...I also feel like the auto succeed from skill test backlash came mostly from a few wizards and a large portion of people not wanting to see wizards get a buff.....(Druids).


I genuinely don’t understand the mindset of wanting to hinder/weaken other classes besides your main. I play Wizard, I think Monk and Ranger are leagues above everyone else. Even with that, I have never once gone to a Monk or Ranger token being designed and said “power it down”.

The only times I can think of suggesting powering down tokens were when they were effectively copies of existing tokens with strictly improvements and at the same rarity/slot (the new rare fire Plate Armor, I suggested maybe dropping a point of fire damage to possibly prevent it from replacing Shark Tooth 100% of the time, but even then acknowledged it might be fine because the damage is typed, as an example). That just seems like such a negative way to approach token design and your fellow teammates. The goal shouldn’t be to make us all suffer together, or should be to make us all shine together and talk about who else needs buffs to reach the spot they should be at.
I play Wizard.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #114

If I can't be the best by my own tokens. I will be the best by screwing over yours.
Be the best, by any means possible

It's a shitty mentality :(
Last edit: by Arcanist Kolixela.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #115

From the UR thread I saw people disagreeing with me so I thought I'd put my findings here if you want to pick them apart. I think the most reasonable comparison I could find is a BIS build using MEC with 2020 tokens vs just adding this round's proposed legendary. I did this across nine rounds divided among three rooms. Here are my findings without the Cabal set:

2020 = 640 total damage, 71 average damage per round
2021 = 1021 total damage, 113 average damage per round (a 60% increase through a single token)

If you're curious, adding the Cabal set:

2020 = 762 total damage, 85 average damage per round
2021 = 1177 total damage, 131 average damage per round (slightly lower 54% increase through a single token)

I'm happy to share how I got these numbers, but attempting to put them in a forum post makes them very difficult to read. Especially with trying to compare four things at once. If someone would like to see the results of a different suggestion (Arcanist's?) let me know.

What do we want an average round's damage to look like? I was thinking around 110 is good.
Last edit: by James Bennett.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #116

James Bennett wrote: From the UR thread I saw people disagreeing with me so I thought I'd put my findings here if you want to pick them apart. I think the most reasonable comparison I could find is a BIS build using MEC with 2020 tokens vs just adding this round's proposed legendary. I did this across nine rounds divided among three rooms. Here are my findings without the Cabal set:

2020 = 640 total damage, 71 average damage per round
2021 = 1021 total damage, 113 average damage per round (a 60% increase through a single token)

If you're curious, adding the Cabal set:

2020 = 762 total damage, 85 average damage per round
2021 = 1177 total damage, 131 average damage per round (slightly lower 54% increase through a single token)

I'm happy to share how I got these numbers, but attempting to put them in a forum post makes them very difficult to read. Especially with trying to compare four things at once. If someone would like to see the results of a different suggestion (Arcanist's?) let me know.

What do we want an average round's damage to look like? I was thinking around 110 is good.


Hasn’t Jeff repeatedly talked about creating a Tome slot? With that, planning on Carter’s + Gregor’s already sets this up to be an illegal build in the near future. Drop one of the times to adjust the build for the more reasonable and foreseeable future. I’m guessing since you said 9 rounds of combat this also means dealing that much damage and taking 45 damage to oneself? I saw you chose Consititution for Kilt, does that mean you reasonably calculated misses with slide spells on either VTD or based on actual board slides (bearing in mind the average Wizard is worse at sliding than a Monk’s open hand or a Ranger’s offhand)? And factoring in some percentage of skill test failures (people who main Wizard either get it 99% or 0% and people who swap to Wizard as a backup class tend to be somewhere in between the two extremes)? I am willing to bet you went with the assumption “wizards hit 100% of the time on slides and always pass skill tests”, which is not the most fair assumption, especially for skid spells.
I play Wizard.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #117

James Bennett wrote: From the UR thread I saw people disagreeing with me so I thought I'd put my findings here if you want to pick them apart. I think the most reasonable comparison I could find is a BIS build using MEC with 2020 tokens vs just adding this round's proposed legendary. I did this across nine rounds divided among three rooms. Here are my findings without the Cabal set:

2020 = 640 total damage, 71 average damage per round
2021 = 1021 total damage, 113 average damage per round (a 60% increase through a single token)

If you're curious, adding the Cabal set:

2020 = 762 total damage, 85 average damage per round
2021 = 1177 total damage, 131 average damage per round (slightly lower 54% increase through a single token)

I'm happy to share how I got these numbers, but attempting to put them in a forum post makes them very difficult to read. Especially with trying to compare four things at once. If someone would like to see the results of a different suggestion (Arcanist's?) let me know.

What do we want an average round's damage to look like? I was thinking around 110 is good.


Are you using mad evoker on every spell to get that much damage?
Fall down......Go boom!
The topic has been locked.

2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #118

Adam Guay wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: After stewing on these tokens more and seeing the ranged damage answers, I have compiled a better collection of my thoughts:

For those saying MEC is already too powerful of a token, let me point some things out. Without Relic/Legendary possible effects, for the Wizard, MEC is -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self) x2
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+9 divided among targets with successful skill test (10 to self)
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
At maximum, if the spells are limited to 1/rd. This leads to +146 to enemies and 140 to self after 14 rounds (with chances to miss AC 15 or fail skill tests for people who don’t want to waste time or don’t have everything memorized). If the Wizard “speeds it up” to the extreme and does 2 spells per round for 7 rounds, it is +101 to enemies and 70 to self.

Elf Wizard -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
Max 119 to enemies and 120 to self over 12 rounds vs 83 to enemies and 60 to self over 6 rounds, with chances for less damage.

For perspective, please remember a considered token was Ring of Sacrifice for 20 damage to an enemy for 10 to self (or an amount of damage that brings the player down to 10 HP). And players were not thrilled with that offer. So, if others wouldn’t use the ring, why is MEC so much more tempting to a class with even less HP than the ones who could have used the ring? Is MEC really that overpowered for doing that over such a long period and after sacrificing so much to self?

Looking at the various passes of the Relic:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/24 base damage, all other spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3)

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC deals 5 less damage to self, all spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), autosucceed skill checks.

Pass 2 (and 3) was by far and away the most powerful, followed by 4, then 1, and now 5 is drastically weaker. I would love heading back in earlier directions, I would love the +9 (in addition to base +3) for successful checks paired with the extra spell boxes and/or cast as a free action, if we are just looking at previous iterations.

Thinking of it as a stand-alone and not comparing to past iterations, I love the some of the other ideas thrown out: MEC, MEC deals 5 less to self, Counts as 1 piece of a set bonus (do we have to limit it to Cabal? I am okay with that if we do, it just feels very restrictive if it is a specific set), +X/+Y damage for failed vs passed skill check (and slid spells get the +Y). I would be thrilled with aar a ist Kolixela’s Relic printed as worded. I would alternatively love adding MEC only deals damage to self if spell hits or choice of which spell for the round is made after determining spell hit for the round. The MEC inclusion will help roughly half of the spells cast, the self damage reduction still helping for roughly half the spells cast, adding damage to skill check spells will add damage to over half of the spells cast but only for players who choose to do the tests. Boosting MEC to affect all spells in a round would be a lovely boost. Replacing the skill test bonus damage with just letting MEC double the spell modifier damage for one or all spells in that round would also be great. Baking in Charm of Spell Swapping or Improved Spell Swapping to trade for same level spell would be a huge boost that feels like a fair trade for losing the scroll effect and is a lot of fun to let the wizard better enjoy planar checks or sliding based on that Wizard’s preference. I absolutely HATE the autosucceed skill test. At that point, every class should just get “autosucceed at your basic attack” so no class wastes time sliding or doing checks and the most interesting pets of every class are removed. I understand many dislike the skill test because of the time crunch (the time crunch on it is less than sliding but more than casting and autofailing), but an autosuccess removes a substantial amount of fun by stripping Wizard of what makes them interesting. This is the strongest aspect of the token I will object to. Please remember how strong opposition was to that effect on the UR.

As for my thoughts on the Legendary:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells, SR -25%, Autohit slide spells, Familiar (slide puck for low to hit and low damage bonus with a low damage wheel, gain minor benefits)

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +2 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, Familiar

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, MoMM, MEC

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/27 base damage, all other spells deal +12 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC only deals 5 to self, all spells deal +7 on successful skill check (in addition to base +3), autosuceed all skill checks, slide spells crit on 19-20, slide spells deal 3x damage on crit, cast 0 level spell as free action 1/room (roughly 3-4x per dungeon, my understanding is only once in Grind)

I guess ranking these, I like Pass 1 best but would have wanted autohit slides removed (even though I secretly love it), Pass 2 second, Pass 3 third, Pass 4 fourth, Pass 5 is my least favorite. It has only gotten progressively less desirable. Least favorite effect is the autosuccess spell check, next least favorite is autohit slides, then the triple crit on slide, then improved crit range on slide, then spell resistance, then the Familiar. The other effects seemed okay. Personally, again, I loved Arcanist Kolixela’s suggestion. I like MEC but only take 2-3 damage to self, MEC only damages self on hit, choose which spell to MEC after seeing results, MEC boosts all spells in round (maybe it even counts as 2 activations of MEC to do this?), (MEC boosts base damage and spell modifier damage is a less desirable effect and would likely not mean reducing the damage to self), counts as 1 piece of a set bonus, +X/+Y damage based on fail vs pass skill check and slid spell gets +Y, or Improved Spell Swapping (or evening regular spell swapping), getting more spell boxes, casting spells as free actions (as spells, not scrolls), and/or maybe getting MoMM + wands nonconsumable to follow with Monk and Druid legendaries (obviously not all of these but some combination). For the slide spells, Wizard has 3 and Elf Wizard has 2 (with the ability for either to Charm of Spell Swapping up to a max or 6 slid spells), so modifying these spells in specific seems like a small bonus that will rarely come up. I can’t speak for all of the Wizards, I know some Wizards do enjoy sliding, but my understanding is most people playing Wizard (especially as a main) are doing it to avoid sliding, so benefitting sliding in specific goes against our primary interest in the class. Another idea for the “fun effect” for the Wizard: can Cast Detect Magic to get Bard or Rogue clue instead (or maybe even to get a rogue box token?)


I dont see us getting the clue or treasure tolen as a fun effect...I also feel like the auto succeed from skill test backlash came mostly from a few wizards and a large portion of people not wanting to see wizards get a buff.....(Druids).


I have and will in the future play a wizard in nightmare runs. The backlash against auto-success on spell tests is the observation that rogues all use the Libram of Looting. What makes TD special in part is the skill tests. I don’t want to see them all go the way of the rogue lock box. Not wanting to see this on the Wizard Legendary has nothing to do with playing a Druid.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #119

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Hasn’t Jeff repeatedly talked about creating a Tome slot? With that, planning on Carter’s + Gregor’s already sets this up to be an illegal build in the near future. Drop one of the times to adjust the build for the more reasonable and foreseeable future.


Sure, I didn't use Carter's in this setup regardless. Using a standard action as a scroll is less effective in this limited period. The numbers I posted stay the same.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: I’m guessing since you said 9 rounds of combat this also means dealing that much damage and taking 45 damage to oneself?


Correct, most arguments seem to assume it every round. The 2020 damage is with taking 90 damage, and that is reduced to 45 in 2021. I do not view this to be as likely and could adjust to 3-4 rounds which I think would happen more often.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: I saw you chose Consititution for Kilt


I did. I needed one of the options selected to get the extra Eldritch set damage. I picked CON to synergize with the build and since ranged attack modifier was already high enough to only miss on a 1 (EDIT: I realize the build fragment has ranged to hit at +2. I wanted to highlight the pieces which affect damage so I took out things that got the build there. This build fragment remedies that assuming all of the slide spells are used in one room. Other options exist without the figurine but attempting to keep this simple.)

Anthony Barnstable wrote: I saw you chose Consititution for Kilt, does that mean you reasonably calculated misses with slide spells on either VTD or based on actual board slides (bearing in mind the average Wizard is worse at sliding than a Monk’s open hand or a Ranger’s offhand)? And factoring in some percentage of skill test failures (people who main Wizard either get it 99% or 0% and people who swap to Wizard as a backup class tend to be somewhere in between the two extremes)? I am willing to bet you went with the assumption “wizards hit 100% of the time on slides and always pass skill tests”, which is not the most fair assumption, especially for skid spells.


I calculated the slide spells using Matthew Hayward's approach for VTD. This assumes misses only on a one and crit on a nine or ten on a d10:

(Base damage x 2 (MEC) + 37 (Spell damage)) x .7 + (Base damage x 4 (Crit MEC) + 37 x 3 (Crit Spell damage)) x .2

This brings the average damage of the Ray of Shock/Scorching Ray to 114.75 and Acid Ray to 98.55 after factoring miss and crit chance. I did assume passing all skill tests.

EDIT: I also assumed getting the full +3 benefit from the Bracelets of the Cabal for those numbers so they wouldn't change from using the Blessed Tempest Gloves.
Last edit: by James Bennett.
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2021 Wizard Relic/Legendary Almost Final! 7 months 3 weeks ago #120

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: After stewing on these tokens more and seeing the ranged damage answers, I have compiled a better collection of my thoughts:

For those saying MEC is already too powerful of a token, let me point some things out. Without Relic/Legendary possible effects, for the Wizard, MEC is -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self) x2
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+9 divided among targets with successful skill test (10 to self)
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
At maximum, if the spells are limited to 1/rd. This leads to +146 to enemies and 140 to self after 14 rounds (with chances to miss AC 15 or fail skill tests for people who don’t want to waste time or don’t have everything memorized). If the Wizard “speeds it up” to the extreme and does 2 spells per round for 7 rounds, it is +101 to enemies and 70 to self.

Elf Wizard -

+20 divided among targets (10 to self)
+18 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+11 with successful skill test (10 to self) x3
+12 with a chance to miss AC 15 (10 to self)
+6 with successful skill test (10 to self) x6
Max 119 to enemies and 120 to self over 12 rounds vs 83 to enemies and 60 to self over 6 rounds, with chances for less damage.

For perspective, please remember a considered token was Ring of Sacrifice for 20 damage to an enemy for 10 to self (or an amount of damage that brings the player down to 10 HP). And players were not thrilled with that offer. So, if others wouldn’t use the ring, why is MEC so much more tempting to a class with even less HP than the ones who could have used the ring? Is MEC really that overpowered for doing that over such a long period and after sacrificing so much to self?

Looking at the various passes of the Relic:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/24 base damage, all other spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3)

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC deals 5 less damage to self, all spells deal +9 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), autosucceed skill checks.

Pass 2 (and 3) was by far and away the most powerful, followed by 4, then 1, and now 5 is drastically weaker. I would love heading back in earlier directions, I would love the +9 (in addition to base +3) for successful checks paired with the extra spell boxes and/or cast as a free action, if we are just looking at previous iterations.

Thinking of it as a stand-alone and not comparing to past iterations, I love the some of the other ideas thrown out: MEC, MEC deals 5 less to self, Counts as 1 piece of a set bonus (do we have to limit it to Cabal? I am okay with that if we do, it just feels very restrictive if it is a specific set), +X/+Y damage for failed vs passed skill check (and slid spells get the +Y). I would be thrilled with aar a ist Kolixela’s Relic printed as worded. I would alternatively love adding MEC only deals damage to self if spell hits or choice of which spell for the round is made after determining spell hit for the round. The MEC inclusion will help roughly half of the spells cast, the self damage reduction still helping for roughly half the spells cast, adding damage to skill check spells will add damage to over half of the spells cast but only for players who choose to do the tests. Boosting MEC to affect all spells in a round would be a lovely boost. Replacing the skill test bonus damage with just letting MEC double the spell modifier damage for one or all spells in that round would also be great. Baking in Charm of Spell Swapping or Improved Spell Swapping to trade for same level spell would be a huge boost that feels like a fair trade for losing the scroll effect and is a lot of fun to let the wizard better enjoy planar checks or sliding based on that Wizard’s preference. I absolutely HATE the autosucceed skill test. At that point, every class should just get “autosucceed at your basic attack” so no class wastes time sliding or doing checks and the most interesting pets of every class are removed. I understand many dislike the skill test because of the time crunch (the time crunch on it is less than sliding but more than casting and autofailing), but an autosuccess removes a substantial amount of fun by stripping Wizard of what makes them interesting. This is the strongest aspect of the token I will object to. Please remember how strong opposition was to that effect on the UR.

As for my thoughts on the Legendary:

Pass 1 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells, SR -25%, Autohit slide spells, Familiar (slide puck for low to hit and low damage bonus with a low damage wheel, gain minor benefits)

Pass 2 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +2 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, Familiar

Pass 3 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/15 base damage, gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action, MoMM, MEC

Pass 4 - 5 extra spellboxes to cast a spell that deals 12/27 base damage, all other spells deal +12 on successful skill check (in addition to the base +3), gain +1 0/1/2/3 level spells as free action

Pass 5 - MEC, MEC only deals 5 to self, all spells deal +7 on successful skill check (in addition to base +3), autosuceed all skill checks, slide spells crit on 19-20, slide spells deal 3x damage on crit, cast 0 level spell as free action 1/room (roughly 3-4x per dungeon, my understanding is only once in Grind)

I guess ranking these, I like Pass 1 best but would have wanted autohit slides removed (even though I secretly love it), Pass 2 second, Pass 3 third, Pass 4 fourth, Pass 5 is my least favorite. It has only gotten progressively less desirable. Least favorite effect is the autosuccess spell check, next least favorite is autohit slides, then the triple crit on slide, then improved crit range on slide, then spell resistance, then the Familiar. The other effects seemed okay. Personally, again, I loved Arcanist Kolixela’s suggestion. I like MEC but only take 2-3 damage to self, MEC only damages self on hit, choose which spell to MEC after seeing results, MEC boosts all spells in round (maybe it even counts as 2 activations of MEC to do this?), (MEC boosts base damage and spell modifier damage is a less desirable effect and would likely not mean reducing the damage to self), counts as 1 piece of a set bonus, +X/+Y damage based on fail vs pass skill check and slid spell gets +Y, or Improved Spell Swapping (or evening regular spell swapping), getting more spell boxes, casting spells as free actions (as spells, not scrolls), and/or maybe getting MoMM + wands nonconsumable to follow with Monk and Druid legendaries (obviously not all of these but some combination). For the slide spells, Wizard has 3 and Elf Wizard has 2 (with the ability for either to Charm of Spell Swapping up to a max or 6 slid spells), so modifying these spells in specific seems like a small bonus that will rarely come up. I can’t speak for all of the Wizards, I know some Wizards do enjoy sliding, but my understanding is most people playing Wizard (especially as a main) are doing it to avoid sliding, so benefitting sliding in specific goes against our primary interest in the class. Another idea for the “fun effect” for the Wizard: can Cast Detect Magic to get Bard or Rogue clue instead (or maybe even to get a rogue box token?)


I dont see us getting the clue or treasure tolen as a fun effect...I also feel like the auto succeed from skill test backlash came mostly from a few wizards and a large portion of people not wanting to see wizards get a buff.....(Druids).


I genuinely don’t understand the mindset of wanting to hinder/weaken other classes besides your main. I play Wizard, I think Monk and Ranger are leagues above everyone else. Even with that, I have never once gone to a Monk or Ranger token being designed and said “power it down”.

The only times I can think of suggesting powering down tokens were when they were effectively copies of existing tokens with strictly improvements and at the same rarity/slot (the new rare fire Plate Armor, I suggested maybe dropping a point of fire damage to possibly prevent it from replacing Shark Tooth 100% of the time, but even then acknowledged it might be fine because the damage is typed, as an example). That just seems like such a negative way to approach token design and your fellow teammates. The goal shouldn’t be to make us all suffer together, or should be to make us all shine together and talk about who else needs buffs to reach the spot they should be at.


I have. The proposed ring of the elder eel. I hated on it as much as I could.

Our ranger and monk were quite displeased with me.
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