TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

Mike Steele wrote:
So Druids average about 90 points of damage over 10 turns in a max build. How much damage do Wizards do with all the current tokens over 10 turns? I think it's a lot more than 900. Why is it unacceptable for the Druid to even be in the same damage dealing vicinity as the Wizard? The bias towards Druids in these threads gets pretty tiring.

973 over 10 rounds and Wizards would be taking 50 points of MEC damage over those same rounds (if Legendary stays in it's current form) with no healing options.

Current Best in Slot Wizard has a spell damage bonus of +34 with 1 free action spell. it's possible to get a few more free action spells but every free action spell token equipped costs the Wizard at least 2 spell damage bonus.

Rd1 - Lightning Storm (free) + Magic Missile

20 base + 20 MEC +34 bonus = 74 for lightning storm
8 base + 3 spell check + 34 bonus = 45 for Magic Missile

Total for round 1 = 119
HP cost for round 1 = 10

Rd 2 - Scorching Ray
18 base + 18 MEC + 34 bonus = 70 damage for Scorching Ray

Total for round 2 = 70
Total HP cost = 20

Rd 3 Ray of Shock
18 base + 18 MEC + 34 bonus = 70 damage for Scorching Ray

Total for round 3 = 70
Total HP cost = 30



This changes if we add more free action spells but that requires using the 3 piece Cabal set which costs 3 from gloves slot and the free second level spell from losing arcane bracelets.

Cabal set would give 3 or 4 potential free action spells at a loss of +3 per spell and not MEC triggerable.

Is 90/round more than Wizards can currently do? YES

Does 90/round from Druid cost 10HP every round? NO

So the Druid does more damage than the Wizard at a cost of 100HP less than the Wizard is expending.

Grizwald wrote: Is Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger usable with Flurry of Blows?

it would be a 4/5/6/6 melee weapon, but I would assume so.

macxdmg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen more push back on the Ring of Quick Prayer. Just remember that with Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of expertise, that's a lot of extra spells and is actually superior to the power of the Legendary for Wizards

I haven't run the numbers, but I'm inclined to agree (I guess it depends on how the ranged stuff shakes out).

A level 1 spell as a FA each round in the Ring Slot might be better for many wizards than the current legendary.

the legendary makes it better though, wait wizads are on the ring?

I think what this is saying is that if the Wizards got this ring at UR it would be more damage for the Wizard than the current Legendary option

The easy solution to the Ring of Quick Prayer is to make it a neck slot if people are worried about Druid power creep.

OrionW wrote: The easy solution to the Ring of Quick Prayer is to make it a neck slot if people are worried about Druid power creep.

You can not put it at neck. Clerics don’t have it built in to the relic or legendary. You have to keep it at holy symbol, charm, or ring.

Mike Steele wrote: So Druids average about 90 points of damage over 10 turns in a max build. How much damage do Wizards do with all the current tokens over 10 turns? I think it's a lot more than 900. Why is it unacceptable for the Druid to even be in the same damage dealing vicinity as the Wizard? The bias towards Druids in these threads gets pretty tiring.

In the analysis I did over on the other thread, wizards got to 973 - with skill test (that they autopass) - compared with this approach to Druid at 930 with skill tests.

I don't think Druids should be able to exceed 90% of the damage output of Wizards,
AND have access to 144 points of healing spells (some as a free action)
AND have higher AC
AND have better saves
AND have more HP
AND not have to sacrifice 50 HP to deal that damage
WITH further boosts to their Relic/Legendary on the way

If that position is "bias towards Druids," then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: So Druids average about 90 points of damage over 10 turns in a max build. How much damage do Wizards do with all the current tokens over 10 turns? I think it's a lot more than 900. Why is it unacceptable for the Druid to even be in the same damage dealing vicinity as the Wizard? The bias towards Druids in these threads gets pretty tiring.

In the analysis I did over on the other thread, wizards got to 973 - with skill test (that they autopass) - compared with this approach to Druid at 930 with skill tests.

I don't think Druids should be able to exceed 90% of the damage output of Wizards,
AND have access to 144 points of healing spells (some as a free action)
AND have higher AC
AND have better saves
AND have more HP
AND not have to sacrifice 50 HP to deal that damage
WITH further boosts to their Relic/Legendary on the way

If that position is "bias towards Druids," then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Read me my rights, guess I'm also guilty of bias towards Druids then

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Can we change ring of power to 0 or 1st level spell?

Honestly, I'd rather have another sonic dart than any of the 1st level bard spells.

Boots are very good. Maybe too good? Having strength boots in the same set as the gloves seems a bit heavy handed (pun intended).

I think Cranston's hat will see a lot of play.

Should a sneak attacking assassin really be able to assassinate with the SA 6-10? That honestly seems counterintuitive to me. If the SA is a 10, it's a 10. Also, shouldnt it be an 8, to be consistent with the shortsword? The dagger is already arguably better, with the ability to be thrown for a ranged SA without lenses.

I still would like to see something more from Psyferre's. It just doesnt feel like it's enough. Maybe if it was equip an additional figurine (either allowing bards and Paladin to get to 3) or "may equip 2 figurines (so it at least got DF to 2 as well). I'm hoping for additional, as a way to differentiate it from crown of allure at a higher rarity.

I like the MEC reprint. Not sure about the int change, but ok.

If we keep Druids on ring of quick prayer, their legendary gets a LOT better really quickly......

Done. Thanks for the good idea.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Can we change ring of power to 0 or 1st level spell?

Honestly, I'd rather have another sonic dart than any of the 1st level bard spells.

Boots are very good. Maybe too good? Having strength boots in the same set as the gloves seems a bit heavy handed (pun intended).

I think Cranston's hat will see a lot of play.

Should a sneak attacking assassin really be able to assassinate with the SA 6-10? That honestly seems counterintuitive to me. If the SA is a 10, it's a 10. Also, shouldnt it be an 8, to be consistent with the shortsword? The dagger is already arguably better, with the ability to be thrown for a ranged SA without lenses.

I still would like to see something more from Psyferre's. It just doesnt feel like it's enough. Maybe if it was equip an additional figurine (either allowing bards and Paladin to get to 3) or "may equip 2 figurines (so it at least got DF to 2 as well). I'm hoping for additional, as a way to differentiate it from crown of allure at a higher rarity.

I like the MEC reprint. Not sure about the int change, but ok.

If we keep Druids on ring of quick prayer, their legendary gets a LOT better really quickly......

Done. Thanks for the good idea.

Awesome! Thanks!

Flik wrote:

OrionW wrote: The easy solution to the Ring of Quick Prayer is to make it a neck slot if people are worried about Druid power creep.

You can not put it at neck. Clerics don’t have it built in to the relic or legendary. You have to keep it at holy symbol, charm, or ring.

Odd, I missed that. I thought the transmute was inclusive of the earlier abilities.

Arnold wrote: Free action casts of any damage spell from any class are problematic.

They shouldn't be allowed lightly. We all know the huge issue with Rangers and Monks adding their modifiers 2x per round.

If I were to fix this ring, I'd limit Druid use of the ring to 1/room and leave Clerics with unlimited. Kind of a nod to the design of last year's UR ingredients.

I could see taking Druids off altogether, too. I hope they aren't.

Ring of quick prayer. Oh boy, here we go...

I like it. I will get it for druid (and use it as cleric if I play cleric, of course). I DO have the druid legendary. I do NOT have a charm of spell swapping. So, here is how it looks for me.

Primarily polymorph, every combat when able. If there is a no melee combat, switch to spellcasting; cast all the best damage spells, but have very small bonus (I think +7, now). This ring will allow adding a couple free action damage spells to whichever combat they are needed AND I can give a few heals without stopping my attacks.

This is very powerful, but not TOO powerful.

HOWEVER, the charm of spell swapping. If converting a spell down is allowed with the ring, this becomes REALLY strong...like, best in slot.
Honestly, it would be strong enough that I would need to put in another $250 order ASAP to get a charm of spell swapping.

BUT, I could see a case made to not allow it to work. Maybe the action has to be valid BEFORE you swap the spell. So, first, check to see if you can cast that level 2 spell as a free action. No? Full stop. No chance to swap down to level 1.

Another option to resolve this AND BASICALLY EVERY ARGUMENT THAT DRUID WILL BE TOO POWERFUL: please remove druid from charm of spell swapping. Without it, druids have no chance of matching clerics on healing or wizards on spell damage...and maybe then druids will be allowed to have cool toys.


If TPTB decide to change the new ring to avoid the power boost, please leave the cleric ability alone. This is a great item for clerics as is, don't screw it up for them. But again, please consider either fix above for druids rather than removing them. Thanks.