TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

Ian Lee wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Charm of bonding hurts Rangers and Monks as both use more than 1 melee and ranged weapon.

I did not mean it so...I will change it so the wording is better for them.

I liked the anti-ranger/anti-monk aspect. Could limit to certain classes.

I know the charm is gone, but for future design thoughts...

I thought the original was a great way to allow the non-dual sliding classes to catch up on overall damage potential. It's not a nerf to them; its just not a bonus for them.

Fiddy wrote:

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Picc wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Should a sneak attacking assassin really be able to assassinate with the SA 6-10? That honestly seems counterintuitive to me. If the SA is a 10, it's a 10. Also, shouldnt it be an 8, to be consistent with the shortsword? The dagger is already arguably better, with the ability to be thrown for a ranged SA without lenses.

I'm confused where that thrown for first round sneak attack power is coming from. If its the dagger itself, that seems out of line with what the original did (unless all nightshade weapons now grant first round sneak attack which I would be ok with since there are so few 2007 swords in circulation and most rogues who have one are also wearing the relic neck which does that anyway).

Honestly I love that this weapon exists but I feel we should try to keep it a close in function to the original to prevent GM confusion (which nighshade's already causes a lot of in room).

It is only SA first round if thrown, at which point you no longer have that weapon that combat. If you're sneak attacking in Melee, you still have to wait the round.

Monster: "Oh look, that tasty Rogue is walking towards me with their Dagger that looks almost as big as a sword"
Rogue: "Surprise, sucker!" <Throws sword Dagger>
Monster: "I did not see that coming."

Not knocking the power, just trying to keep the "Nightshade" prefix more consistent as I already have to have a printed card to explain what it does most room GMs and this is going to make it a lot more common in the years to come.

I'm not sure I'd call "Nightshade's" a descriptive prefix. More just denoting who spawned it. But we don't exactly have many examples to pull from for honorably named tokens that have been re-released in a modified form either.

Widseth’s is the only other one I can think of, but that doesn't really apply since his/that has been an artifact sword, UR lute, and Legendary lute. The Nighshade prefix is being used to 2 very similar UR weapons.

Fiddy wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Picc wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Should a sneak attacking assassin really be able to assassinate with the SA 6-10? That honestly seems counterintuitive to me. If the SA is a 10, it's a 10. Also, shouldnt it be an 8, to be consistent with the shortsword? The dagger is already arguably better, with the ability to be thrown for a ranged SA without lenses.

I'm confused where that thrown for first round sneak attack power is coming from. If its the dagger itself, that seems out of line with what the original did (unless all nightshade weapons now grant first round sneak attack which I would be ok with since there are so few 2007 swords in circulation and most rogues who have one are also wearing the relic neck which does that anyway).

Honestly I love that this weapon exists but I feel we should try to keep it a close in function to the original to prevent GM confusion (which nighshade's already causes a lot of in room).

Ok, so up front - wife's main is Rogue ranged build with Lenses of Agility. I'm buying multiple NTDs and am grateful for it. But...

Does this effectively obsolete the Nightshade's +2 Short Sword? If you have the NSS, would you use the NTD? NSS non-SA damage EV is 6.33 and NTD is 4.83 for 1.5 downgrade. I would think given the choice of a NSS or NTD, I'd do NTD for the versatility.

I know we're close to final, but there was a suggestion around 4/5/6/Dagger with Dagger being non-6 (say 8). This brings the non-SA damage EV to 3.83 (with 33% to 25% on assassinate whereas NSS is 16%).

Even with the damage EV reduction, the versatility and no need for other tokens to SA at range and on first range make this really strong. So I'd suggest removing the SA at a distance and SA on first round (for ranged) and let other tokens grant these abilities. NTD will still be strong.

Please be gentle.

I think I missed something. How does a 4/5/6/8 damage wheel give an average of 3.83? Shouldn't that be 5.75?

Yeah, divide by 4 not 6. Dang rusty math skills. I stand corrected.

Lequinian wrote: Please be gentle.

*Backstab* Muha!

Lequinian wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Charm of bonding hurts Rangers and Monks as both use more than 1 melee and ranged weapon.

I did not mean it so...I will change it so the wording is better for them.

I liked the anti-ranger/anti-monk aspect. Could limit to certain classes.

I know the charm is gone, but for future design thoughts...

I thought the original was a great way to allow the non-dual sliding classes to catch up on overall damage potential. It's not a nerf to them; its just not a bonus for them.

Honestly I'm not even sure why were changing it. There is still demand for the 2007 short sword, I personally use it over viperstrike to this day. In a vacuum the new throwing dagger seems stronger. If it were up to me, I would just do a reprint with the new graphic.

That said Raven should sound off on this, since it is her eponymous prefix and there might be back end discussions we are not privy too.

Lequinian wrote: ...Does this effectively obsolete the Nightshade's +2 Short Sword? ...

For what it's worth my melee build would equip both. Throw the dagger, then draw the shortsword for the remainder of combat.

Some folks who have a Nightshade's may choose differently, but as the intent was a close-to-functional-reprint with a little bonus, I like the token as-is. Folks who don't have the Shortsword get to be close to the original on avg. damage, and folks with one may want the new token anyway for the thrown ability.

Lequinian wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Charm of bonding hurts Rangers and Monks as both use more than 1 melee and ranged weapon.

I did not mean it so...I will change it so the wording is better for them.

I liked the anti-ranger/anti-monk aspect. Could limit to certain classes.

I know the charm is gone, but for future design thoughts...

I thought the original was a great way to allow the non-dual sliding classes to catch up on overall damage potential. It's not a nerf to them; its just not a bonus for them.

The idea is interesting, but it probably needs to go in a more expensive slot or have the power reduced some.

Also it should either be usable by all but Monks and Rangers or wait to release after addressing Monk/Ranger damage.

Somehow I deleted my post while updating...

Picc wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Should a sneak attacking assassin really be able to assassinate with the SA 6-10? That honestly seems counterintuitive to me. If the SA is a 10, it's a 10. Also, shouldnt it be an 8, to be consistent with the shortsword? The dagger is already arguably better, with the ability to be thrown for a ranged SA without lenses.

I'm confused where that thrown for first round sneak attack power is coming from. If its the dagger itself, that seems out of line with what the original did (unless all nightshade weapons now grant first round sneak attack which I would be ok with since there are so few 2007 swords in circulation and most rogues who have one are also wearing the relic neck which does that anyway).

Honestly I love that this weapon exists but I feel we should try to keep it a close in function to the original to prevent GM confusion (which nighshade's already causes a lot of in room).

Ok, so up front - wife's main is Rogue ranged build with Lenses of Agility. I'm buying multiple NTDs and am grateful for it. But...

Does this effectively obsolete the Nightshade's +2 Short Sword? If you have the NSS, would you use the NTD? NSS non-SA damage EV is 6.33 and NTD is 4.83 for 1.5 downgrade. I would think given the choice of a NSS or NTD, I'd do NTD for the versatility.

I know we're close to final, but there was a suggestion around 4/5/6/Dagger with Dagger being non-6 (say 8). This brings the non-SA damage EV to 3.83 (with 33% to 25% on assassinate whereas NSS is 16%). Suggestion raises damage EV (thanks Fiddy), so removing (and I think the other dagger analysis has been done several times). If Dagger is an assassinate-able 6, NTD is still double chance of NSS.

Even with the damage EV reduction, the versatility and no need for other tokens to SA at range and on first range make this really strong. So I'd suggest removing the SA at a distance and SA on first round (for ranged) and let other tokens grant these abilities. NTD will still be strong.

Please be gentle.

Lequinian wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Charm of bonding hurts Rangers and Monks as both use more than 1 melee and ranged weapon.

I did not mean it so...I will change it so the wording is better for them.

I liked the anti-ranger/anti-monk aspect. Could limit to certain classes.

I know the charm is gone, but for future design thoughts...

I thought the original was a great way to allow the non-dual sliding classes to catch up on overall damage potential. It's not a nerf to them; its just not a bonus for them.

+1. Was a cool way to let others catch up to dual-wielders.

Character card redesigns ?are?aren't? looming, so probably correct to table this.

Dergidan wrote:

Lequinian wrote: ...Does this effectively obsolete the Nightshade's +2 Short Sword? ...

For what it's worth my melee build would equip both. Throw the dagger, then draw the shortsword for the remainder of combat.

Some folks who have a Nightshade's may choose differently, but as the intent was a close-to-functional-reprint with a little bonus, I like the token as-is. Folks who don't have the Shortsword get to be close to the original on avg. damage, and folks with one may want the new token anyway for the thrown ability.

That honestly sounds good to me. If a rogue likes it and is planning to run both I'd leave it as is.

We've had two rogues now mention they like the little change and would pick it up for the little extra boost.

Comments - I skimmed the thread, but over time, so I may have missed something already mentioned.

Nightshade's Throwing Dagger
This is better than the short sword in that it can be used at range. It has a slight damage reduction, but 2x 6s on the dial for a larger range of assassination, which will come up more with new people allowed to use the sub classes.

Maybe this should be a d4 dial if you intend to ever reprint the short sword, or at least only have 1 6? If there will never be a reprint of the short sword, then maybe it doesn't matter.


Axe of the Dwarvish Kings:
Is this a magical weapon in the hands of a non dwarf? I assume it's magic for a dwarf due to the +2 hit.

Charm of the Faerie:
I'm not a huge fan of melee against flying creatures, but its only once / room. Its +2 dex, though, making it strictly superior to the Greater Quicksilver Charm. +1 Dex is probably better, unless you are OK to push the Greater QS charm out of builds quickly.

Ring of Quick Prayer
I think you may want to move the bard to this token (change name to Ring of Spell Speed if necessary) and remove the druid (Lots of FA spell damage every room). Not marking off the first level bard spells probably isn't going to be a big draw except to cast the instant cast of Muse every room. Casting them as a free action though means you might see the bard Lore check and cast Heroism or Refuge in round 1. I think this would allow a Rare bard to use a Rare instrument and still cast a spell, which would be OK.

Ring of Expertise
If ring of Expertise were to move to damage spells or even non healing spells, you could probably add Cleric and Druid to it. The Cleric could cast Spiritual Hammer once / room (or bless depending if it were non heal or just damage). If not marking a damage spell for wizards is OK, I think its OK for druids too. Heck, if you make it non heal spells, you could keep the bard on the token too.

Earcuff of Orbits
I still think this can wait a year - IS can be expanded by 4(!) right now with in print tokens. Reprinting orbits now is almost certainly going to mean a 5 year stretch with 0 IS expanders.

Boots of Ogre Mage Power
Less powerful than Boots of the X wind, and technically less damage than boots of Shocking Step. It gives newer players without boots of the X wind an option for str in boots. Its OK, but IMO a touch on the lower power side.

Lucky Cloak
I assume there will be no 3 piece set bonus with this? I would really, really like one, even if its small, like reroll save of 1, once / room - just tell me that would be crazy to add a 3 piece set bonus and I'll quit asking.

Pants of Focus
Maybe this should have a different name, if you ever intend on putting in 1 point focus pants in rare? Pants of Improved Focus? Pants of Narrowed Focus?

Cranston's hat
+3 damage is too much in addition to adding an eye slot - this very easily ends up as +6 dex, 100% vs incorp, and +3 ranged damage. I liked +2 ranged hit better but it could be +1 ranged hit, or maybe +1 ranged hit and damage, and still be very, very good.

Psyferre's Spectacles
If the intent of +5 cha is to get an extra figurine, just give it +1 figurine (allowing 3 on Bards and Paladins). I think this is likely to be fine power wise, as I can't think of any way to break any class using common and uncommon scrolls, even as a FA pared with Shield of the Scholar. Fighter with 2 FoP and reading Bless Scroll as a free action doesn't overly worry me, and its possibly the most powerful combination I can think of.

Could we get Shield of the Scholar opened to the remaining Shield using classes? Wording might need to be adjusted slightly as my thought is to pair with Psyferre's Spectacles as the enabler, not that the shield itself would convey the ability to read scrolls on its own.