TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

In complete agreement. A likely skip except the transmute.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

You lack proof.

You make a lot of comments, you provide no proof to back it up.

Tokens Druid are on aren't nerfed because of a misconception of the class being overpowered. They are nerfed because a free action healing spell in combat is way different than a free action damage spell in combat. A free action party buff is different from a free action direct damage spell. The token is nerfed to allow Druids to have it without adding unintended actions that would never happen with the intended design class.

I think this might be a good time to remind folks that Druids did not complain that Wizards could use the UR that started the Druid Legendary transmute.

(To be fair I did not complain in part because I also occasionally play an Elf Wizard).

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

It doesn't look like you're going to get your wish at this point anyway.

Jeff just expressed concern over Clerics cheesing CoSS in addition to Druids doing it.

I know he referenced cure light wounds, but swapping down to light wounds is very different than swapping down damage spells.

The difference is that healing is done almost entirely out of combat (and with the relic, I don’t even need to swap heals to cast cure moderate wounds as a free action)

Combat wise, there is only one puck, so I can’t swap down to spiritual hammer to cast it twice, and I can’t cast it and slide.

I really, really hope Jeff reads this comment. I cannot think of a way I break quick prayer with a cleric, and it meshes nicely with the relic. It works if it stays as a non damage spell option, or as originally written with only bard and cleric on it.

Drop Druid and add Bard. Let the pure healing/support classes have it.

I agree, I see no problem with allowing it to FA all level 1 spells for Cleric. It might be used for a few double heals in combat but for the most part it's going to be tossing buff spells faster and/or healing and attacking.

Druids and Wizards would sleaze the hell out of it with double spellcasting. That would make it too strong if either class had access to it. I fully support not allowing Wizard or Druid to have access to the Ring.

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

You lack proof.

You make a lot of comments, you provide no proof to back it up.

Tokens Druid are on aren't nerfed because of a misconception of the class being overpowered. They are nerfed because a free action healing spell in combat is way different than a free action damage spell in combat. A free action party buff is different from a free action direct damage spell. The token is nerfed to allow Druids to have it without adding unintended actions that would never happen with the intended design class.

I think this might be a good time to remind folks that Druids did not complain that Wizards could use the UR that started the Druid Legendary transmute.

(To be fair I did not complain in part because I also occasionally play an Elf Wizard).

And I will remind you that the Druids gained polymorph damage on their Baton of Focus but Wizards were denied it.

Burning a spell to polymorph is not the same thing as gaining access to free action level 1 damage spells.

False equivalence fallacy

I’m sure I missed it, where did the ring of sacrifice go? It was an amazing MEC for healers that disappeared after it was nerfed, do we know why?

macxdmg wrote: I’m sure I missed it, where did the ring of sacrifice go? It was an amazing MEC for healers that disappeared after it was nerfed, do we know why?

I think it just poofed because the last round revamp was so bad no one would use it. (deal 20, lose all HP down to 10. Was unusable)

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

It doesn't look like you're going to get your wish at this point anyway.

Jeff just expressed concern over Clerics cheesing CoSS in addition to Druids doing it.

I know he referenced cure light wounds, but swapping down to light wounds is very different than swapping down damage spells.

The difference is that healing is done almost entirely out of combat (and with the relic, I don’t even need to swap heals to cast cure moderate wounds as a free action)

Combat wise, there is only one puck, so I can’t swap down to spiritual hammer to cast it twice, and I can’t cast it and slide.

I really, really hope Jeff reads this comment. I cannot think of a way I break quick prayer with a cleric, and it meshes nicely with the relic. It works if it stays as a non damage spell option, or as originally written with only bard and cleric on it.

Jeff's comment anticipated future changes to the Cleric card.

If this ring was unlimited 1st level FAs it would limit the damage spells that could be placed on an updated Cleric card.

Jeff is, I believe, trying to protect future Clerics card changes.

Can we please move all the Druid talk that isn’t abojt the ring to a different thread

I would have never considered turning a healing/buffing ring into a damage ring, but once the Druids suggested it and Jeff showed an image of Druids getting to use it as a damage ring, well, I as a Wizard then want in on the damage and won’t pretend otherwise, sorry.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

Don't look at the Wizards as the culprits on this one. We aren't the ones that have been campaigning to be added to your ring.

TBF, Druids didn't do any campaigning. Jeff added Druids to the ring in its very first iteration.

Then it was pointed out it would be broken, and Jeff toned it down.

It's not like the ring was a Cleric-only ring, and Druids campaigned to get added.

It's not like Druids campaigned to get added onto the token when it was a charm.

Bad form to be calling bullshit on Mike all day and then make false insinuations like this.

I'd like to suggest further discussion of Druid class design, capabilities, and relative strengths and weaknesses occur over here:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=564&id=251664

So people trying to discuss the 2021 Ultra Rares can do so in peace.

Flik wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

In complete agreement. A likely skip except the transmute.

So you guys will skip because you can’t track 5 uses ? What do you do with your current spells ? But you will also be giving up FA restore power