TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: The Druid legendary is designed for melee play. Epic level characters should be able to crit for 120+. Druids cannot.

What do you mean? This build can crit for 122 - I can optimize it further for more damage, but I aimed for >60hp (with 10 synergy bonus) and 20 or greater saves in every category.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/33c2f9dc-cdc1-466a-b790-c1f472099363

OrionW wrote: Druid healers do not have the same support abilities of Clerics.

Healing is a form of support. If you take the above build, trade Fiendish Charm for Spell Swapping, Ring of Frost for a +5 ring of Focus, and Drake's for Supreme Ring, you'll pick up +22 healing and more healing spells than a Cleric. You can also spell surge to close the gap even more - at the cost of +4 damage on the build.

OrionW wrote: Druid casters don’t have the same damage as Wizards or ability to hit multiple enemies with one spell.

I can create a Druid spell build - I'm pretty sure the druid can hit +34 spell damage, just like the wizard, trading AoE spells for spell surge.

Edit, I was wrong - the Druid can hit +35 spell damage due to greater mistletoe. Add bardsong for +39 with the earcuff of inspiration.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2dbe3ae2-246b-4f8b-b2e0-e762ef15410e

OrionW wrote: Druids are a half step behind where they should be in all 3 play styles.

Where should they be? Given they can do any of these 3 rolls, they really shouldn't be better than any of the comparable classes, correct?

The build you propose has none of the flexibility that folks point to when they keep asking to nerf Druid items.

It also just scrapes by at 120ish crit so it will never be tops on the damage charts.

I disagree with your assessment of support. Clerics will be in a very nice place after this Legendary. Druids won’t have the same other tools that Clerics offer.

Spell surge is nice, but not the same as a Wizard in room 7.

We are talking half a step here... I am not saying they are broken. I am saying there is plenty of room for The Quick Prayer ring in any of its forms so far proposes with out breaking the game balance.

Here, now it crits at 130, has +21 spell damage, +15 healing, and can swap all the spells to damage or healing on demand.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e0084dd2-6a6a-4437-8849-31ee9d96d26e

* Low HPs
* Sub-standard saves
* No room for my charm of awakened synergy
* Also no room for the OMG the sky is falling super overpowered Quick Prayer ring.

Look I get what you are trying to do here, but you are kind of proving my point as you tweak this build. There is room for some Druid love.

I am going to ask you the same questions I just put to Mike.

WHAT EXACTLY do you think the Druid should be at here?

That's over the damage cap you wanted to see, with +21 spell damage for non sliding attacks and +15 to healing AND the ability to swap for more damage or healing at will.

What do you consider good enough for the Druid?

For me the secondary abilities are more interesting than raw damage. I am more than OK if Monks, Barbarians, Rogues, and Mages, etc. do more damage. I would like to see the ability to polymorph into more than one shape in a room. Also I think the ability to slide and cast a first level free action spell on the same round is neat, so I would like to see the Ring of Quick Blessing make it into print.

I would also like to see the Druid Legendary increased slightly in power so I am not tempted to use a different item in a slot that I own a legendary for.

Jeff Martin wrote:

David Zych wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

I'm okay with 1st level spells (5/game) since that's the number of boxes on the character card.

RP (1/game) means it no longer applies to the +1 RP from the legendary. Is that intentional? If not, easily fixed by removing the "(1/game)"

How is this?

I think this text is easier to understand. I like the change.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

James Bennett wrote: I agree with other suggestions here on changes to the UR rings. Something like the following should limit abuse without being overly restrictive:

Ring of Expertise
May cast a 0th or 1st level damage spell without marking it off the card (1/room)
Usable by: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizards

Ring of Quick Blessing
May cast 1st level non-damage spells and Restore Power as a free action
Usable by: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizards

I'm thinking giving all of the casters roughly the same opportunities would work well and would encourage some level of build diversity if we want to see these options opened to the Bard and Druid. This does not come without a price though. This suggestion will do little to remove the desire to see a reprint of the +2 Staff of Power since it does not allow for Alertness to be cast each combat.

Overall I think it might be more effective to go back to the original token design for these two, but drop the Druid. I enjoy playing Druid a lot so I'm not looking for it to be nerfed. I just think the gymnastics required to fit it into the design space on these tokens is going to water it down. Clerics need the UR to keep their options open since it is not being baked into the Relic for valid balancing reasons. They are giving up two high-value slots to get the most from their new legendary path which is a high cost that was not asked of others. Given this I think the original proposition is a great, balanced path for Clerics.

If the Druid receives five free action 1st level spells at an UR ring I believe Wizards are justified saying their legendary needs more than the 3-4 0th level free action spells. However, Wizard damage is at a good place without needing to be increased from the current proposed legendary. I know other Wizards may disagree.

Other Wizards do disagree with that statement

This Wizard also disagrees with James and agrees with Arcanist. Wizards should be the top spell damage dealers (not top damage dealers, just spell damage dealers). Pass 5 of the Wizard UR/Relic/Legendary and this ring to Druid keeps Wizards below Druid and does not really bump Wizards up in damage dealing all that much at all. Especially not to lengendary levels. Include Wizard on the ring please

I'm not concerned with these rings....they are useful for newer players.... give us top tier damage on the wizard relic/legendary.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

James Bennett wrote: I agree with other suggestions here on changes to the UR rings. Something like the following should limit abuse without being overly restrictive:

Ring of Expertise
May cast a 0th or 1st level damage spell without marking it off the card (1/room)
Usable by: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizards

Ring of Quick Blessing
May cast 1st level non-damage spells and Restore Power as a free action
Usable by: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizards

I'm thinking giving all of the casters roughly the same opportunities would work well and would encourage some level of build diversity if we want to see these options opened to the Bard and Druid. This does not come without a price though. This suggestion will do little to remove the desire to see a reprint of the +2 Staff of Power since it does not allow for Alertness to be cast each combat.

Overall I think it might be more effective to go back to the original token design for these two, but drop the Druid. I enjoy playing Druid a lot so I'm not looking for it to be nerfed. I just think the gymnastics required to fit it into the design space on these tokens is going to water it down. Clerics need the UR to keep their options open since it is not being baked into the Relic for valid balancing reasons. They are giving up two high-value slots to get the most from their new legendary path which is a high cost that was not asked of others. Given this I think the original proposition is a great, balanced path for Clerics.

If the Druid receives five free action 1st level spells at an UR ring I believe Wizards are justified saying their legendary needs more than the 3-4 0th level free action spells. However, Wizard damage is at a good place without needing to be increased from the current proposed legendary. I know other Wizards may disagree.

Other Wizards do disagree with that statement

This Wizard also disagrees with James and agrees with Arcanist. Wizards should be the top spell damage dealers (not top damage dealers, just spell damage dealers). Pass 5 of the Wizard UR/Relic/Legendary and this ring to Druid keeps Wizards below Druid and does not really bump Wizards up in damage dealing all that much at all. Especially not to lengendary levels. Include Wizard on the ring please

Perhaps my intention was not clear. I was suggesting the Druids do not get this ring at all to prevent the Ring of Quick Blessing from being watered down. If they retain this access I agree the Wizard legendary is not enough.

Serious question, why do we argue over who does more damage?

Shouldn't we base this stuff on entertainment and fun? Why does it matter if someone can make some edge case build that out damages another class? It doesn't impact you if they are not in your group. Are people actually getting enjoyment out of being top DPS? Like what does that even do for the group other than kill things so quickly that others don't get get a shot?

I just don't understand the extreme level of number crunching, it's kinda killing the fun.

Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

You lack proof.

You make a lot of comments, you provide no proof to back it up.

Tokens Druid are on aren't nerfed because of a misconception of the class being overpowered. They are nerfed because a free action healing spell in combat is way different than a free action damage spell in combat. A free action party buff is different from a free action direct damage spell. The token is nerfed to allow Druids to have it without adding unintended actions that would never happen with the intended design class.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

Mike, the last question he asked was "How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?". You could also add melee damage to this.

I would be interested in your (and other Druid players) answer(s). Knowing this and running some numbers will give a clearer picture as to where the Druid stands compared to your class design beliefs.

Side note to OrionW - I did not see your answer to this either.

Edit: I see that he did ask for damage. Which I assume is melee damage

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

It doesn't look like you're going to get your wish at this point anyway.

Jeff just expressed concern over Clerics cheesing CoSS in addition to Druids doing it.

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: The Druid legendary is designed for melee play. Epic level characters should be able to crit for 120+. Druids cannot.

What do you mean? This build can crit for 122 - I can optimize it further for more damage, but I aimed for >60hp (with 10 synergy bonus) and 20 or greater saves in every category.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/33c2f9dc-cdc1-466a-b790-c1f472099363

OrionW wrote: Druid healers do not have the same support abilities of Clerics.

Healing is a form of support. If you take the above build, trade Fiendish Charm for Spell Swapping, Ring of Frost for a +5 ring of Focus, and Drake's for Supreme Ring, you'll pick up +22 healing and more healing spells than a Cleric. You can also spell surge to close the gap even more - at the cost of +4 damage on the build.

OrionW wrote: Druid casters don’t have the same damage as Wizards or ability to hit multiple enemies with one spell.

I can create a Druid spell build - I'm pretty sure the druid can hit +34 spell damage, just like the wizard, trading AoE spells for spell surge.

Edit, I was wrong - the Druid can hit +35 spell damage due to greater mistletoe. Add bardsong for +39 with the earcuff of inspiration.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2dbe3ae2-246b-4f8b-b2e0-e762ef15410e

OrionW wrote: Druids are a half step behind where they should be in all 3 play styles.

Where should they be? Given they can do any of these 3 rolls, they really shouldn't be better than any of the comparable classes, correct?

The build you propose has none of the flexibility that folks point to when they keep asking to nerf Druid items.

It also just scrapes by at 120ish crit so it will never be tops on the damage charts.

I disagree with your assessment of support. Clerics will be in a very nice place after this Legendary. Druids won’t have the same other tools that Clerics offer.

Spell surge is nice, but not the same as a Wizard in room 7.

We are talking half a step here... I am not saying they are broken. I am saying there is plenty of room for The Quick Prayer ring in any of its forms so far proposes with out breaking the game balance.

Here, now it crits at 130, has +21 spell damage, +15 healing, and can swap all the spells to damage or healing on demand.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e0084dd2-6a6a-4437-8849-31ee9d96d26e

* Low HPs
* Sub-standard saves
* No room for my charm of awakened synergy
* Also no room for the OMG the sky is falling super overpowered Quick Prayer ring.

Look I get what you are trying to do here, but you are kind of proving my point as you tweak this build. There is room for some Druid love.

I am going to ask you the same questions I just put to Mike.

WHAT EXACTLY do you think the Druid should be at here?

That's over the damage cap you wanted to see, with +21 spell damage for non sliding attacks and +15 to healing AND the ability to swap for more damage or healing at will.

What do you consider good enough for the Druid?

For me the secondary abilities are more interesting than raw damage. I am more than OK if Monks, Barbarians, Rogues, and Mages, etc. do more damage. I would like to see the ability to polymorph into more than one shape in a room. Also I think the ability to slide and cast a first level free action spell on the same round is neat, so I would like to see the Quick Prayer ring make it into print.

I would also like to see the Druid Legendary increased slightly in power so I am not tempted to use a different item in a slot that I own a legendary for.

I fail to see an actual answer to my question.

You say the Druid needs some love but you refuse to answer what.

Yes the druid Legendary necklace needs some love. That's understood and it's already been mentioned that you'll be getting that revamp after this token design session.

All first level spells cast as a Free Action is definitely cool, it's also a MASSIVE increase in damage for a class with direct damage first level spells.

It's why no Wizards campaigned to be added to that ring. We all knew it would be too strong in our hands to be allowed.

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

Don't look at the Wizards as the culprits on this one. We aren't the ones that have been campaigning to be added to your ring.

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

It doesn't look like you're going to get your wish at this point anyway.

Jeff just expressed concern over Clerics cheesing CoSS in addition to Druids doing it.

I know he referenced cure light wounds, but swapping down to light wounds is very different than swapping down damage spells.

The difference is that healing is done almost entirely out of combat (and with the relic, I don’t even need to swap heals to cast cure moderate wounds as a free action)

Combat wise, there is only one puck, so I can’t swap down to spiritual hammer to cast it twice, and I can’t cast it and slide.

I really, really hope Jeff reads this comment. I cannot think of a way I break quick prayer with a cleric, and it meshes nicely with the relic. It works if it stays as a non damage spell option, or as originally written with only bard and cleric on it.