TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: The Druid legendary is designed for melee play. Epic level characters should be able to crit for 120+. Druids cannot.

What do you mean? This build can crit for 122 - I can optimize it further for more damage, but I aimed for >60hp (with 10 synergy bonus) and 20 or greater saves in every category.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/33c2f9dc-cdc1-466a-b790-c1f472099363

OrionW wrote: Druid healers do not have the same support abilities of Clerics.

Healing is a form of support. If you take the above build, trade Fiendish Charm for Spell Swapping, Ring of Frost for a +5 ring of Focus, and Drake's for Supreme Ring, you'll pick up +22 healing and more healing spells than a Cleric. You can also spell surge to close the gap even more - at the cost of +4 damage on the build.

OrionW wrote: Druid casters don’t have the same damage as Wizards or ability to hit multiple enemies with one spell.

I can create a Druid spell build - I'm pretty sure the druid can hit +34 spell damage, just like the wizard, trading AoE spells for spell surge.

Edit, I was wrong - the Druid can hit +35 spell damage due to greater mistletoe. Add bardsong for +39 with the earcuff of inspiration.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2dbe3ae2-246b-4f8b-b2e0-e762ef15410e

OrionW wrote: Druids are a half step behind where they should be in all 3 play styles.

Where should they be? Given they can do any of these 3 rolls, they really shouldn't be better than any of the comparable classes, correct?

The build you propose has none of the flexibility that folks point to when they keep asking to nerf Druid items.

It also just scrapes by at 120ish crit so it will never be tops on the damage charts.

I disagree with your assessment of support. Clerics will be in a very nice place after this Legendary. Druids won’t have the same other tools that Clerics offer.

Spell surge is nice, but not the same as a Wizard in room 7.

We are talking half a step here... I am not saying they are broken. I am saying there is plenty of room for The Quick Prayer ring in any of its forms so far proposes with out breaking the game balance.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Raven wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Monster: "Oh look, that tasty Rogue is walking towards me with their Dagger that looks almost as big as a sword"
Rogue: "Surprise, sucker!" <Throws sword Dagger>
Monster: "I did not see that coming."

Thanks, Fiddy - that made me laugh

Picc wrote: Not knocking the power, just trying to keep the "Nightshade" prefix more consistent as I already have to have a printed card to explain what it does most room GMs and this is going to make it a lot more common in the years to come.

I agree that - where possible - keeping similar powers on similarly-named tokens is best. Less work for Coaches & DMs to remember. Less folks referring to TdB for clarifications. Less arguments in the dungeon.

Picc wrote: Honestly I'm not even sure why were changing it. There is still demand for the 2007 short sword, I personally use it over viperstrike to this day. In a vacuum the new throwing dagger seems stronger. If it were up to me, I would just do a reprint with the new graphic.

Me too. Or I *would* have.
But now that there's the possibility of a Sneak Attack weapon with Built-in SA at Range, I am salivating at the possibility, and it'd be hard to go back to the vanilla version.

That said Raven should sound off on this, since it is her eponymous prefix and there might be back end discussions we are not privy too.

Nope. Not that I'm aware of. And if there were, it would probably be me pestering Jeff to... I dunno... maybe add more Sapphires to the graphic ; )

Personally, I think it's a little overpowered (especially with the baked-in first round sneak option) but I've decided to stop commenting on it. Worst happens if we leave it alone: the Rogues get a *very* sweet new dagger which gives a Rare-level power to people who are still just making the jump from Rare to UR. But once people go beyond UR to Relic, they've got that power baked into the Relic, so it's not as big a deal. Worst happens if we keep arguing about it: Jeff uber-nerfs it, or removes it from the line up.

So I'll be here in the shadows, just biding my time.

Magical christmas land ...but what if this was a shuriken with returning from ring of the drake?

Perhaps, a +2 Viper Strike Shuriken? With a +3 relic upgrade?

yes let's ruin the Nightshare reprint that Rogues have been clamoring for and instead make it a Monk token!

I hope you were both cracking jokes

Can't speak for Adam, but I was trying to roll with what I assumed was a joke.

Endgame wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:
Magical christmas land ...but what if this was a shuriken with returning from ring of the drake?

Perhaps, a +2 Viper Strike Shuriken? With a +3 relic upgrade?

Shut up and take my money!

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Raven wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Monster: "Oh look, that tasty Rogue is walking towards me with their Dagger that looks almost as big as a sword"
Rogue: "Surprise, sucker!" <Throws sword Dagger>
Monster: "I did not see that coming."

Thanks, Fiddy - that made me laugh

Picc wrote: Not knocking the power, just trying to keep the "Nightshade" prefix more consistent as I already have to have a printed card to explain what it does most room GMs and this is going to make it a lot more common in the years to come.

I agree that - where possible - keeping similar powers on similarly-named tokens is best. Less work for Coaches & DMs to remember. Less folks referring to TdB for clarifications. Less arguments in the dungeon.

Picc wrote: Honestly I'm not even sure why were changing it. There is still demand for the 2007 short sword, I personally use it over viperstrike to this day. In a vacuum the new throwing dagger seems stronger. If it were up to me, I would just do a reprint with the new graphic.

Me too. Or I *would* have.
But now that there's the possibility of a Sneak Attack weapon with Built-in SA at Range, I am salivating at the possibility, and it'd be hard to go back to the vanilla version.

That said Raven should sound off on this, since it is her eponymous prefix and there might be back end discussions we are not privy too.

Nope. Not that I'm aware of. And if there were, it would probably be me pestering Jeff to... I dunno... maybe add more Sapphires to the graphic ; )

Personally, I think it's a little overpowered (especially with the baked-in first round sneak option) but I've decided to stop commenting on it. Worst happens if we leave it alone: the Rogues get a *very* sweet new dagger which gives a Rare-level power to people who are still just making the jump from Rare to UR. But once people go beyond UR to Relic, they've got that power baked into the Relic, so it's not as big a deal. Worst happens if we keep arguing about it: Jeff uber-nerfs it, or removes it from the line up.

So I'll be here in the shadows, just biding my time.

Magical christmas land ...but what if this was a shuriken with returning from ring of the drake?

Perhaps, a +2 Viper Strike Shuriken? With a +3 relic upgrade?

yes let's ruin the Nightshare reprint that Rogues have been clamoring for and instead make it a Monk token!

I hope you were both cracking jokes

Can't speak for Adam, but I was trying to roll with what I assumed was a joke.

Yeah it's a joke...but a nightshades shuriken with returning off of the drakes ring would be fun.

Fiddy wrote:

OrionW wrote: Druids are a half step behind where they should be in all 3 play styles.

That's the thing that you keep overlooking. They are ONLY a half step behind (at most) in three different playstyles, all with the same build. They are able to determine round by round what they want to do. All those other classes? They get one choice. Or they can invest a lot to make a second playstyle viable, but only at high cost to the first one. And that is a decision those classes mostly have to make during character creation, not round by round.

+1

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: The Druid legendary is designed for melee play. Epic level characters should be able to crit for 120+. Druids cannot.

What do you mean? This build can crit for 122 - I can optimize it further for more damage, but I aimed for >60hp (with 10 synergy bonus) and 20 or greater saves in every category.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/33c2f9dc-cdc1-466a-b790-c1f472099363

OrionW wrote: Druid healers do not have the same support abilities of Clerics.

Healing is a form of support. If you take the above build, trade Fiendish Charm for Spell Swapping, Ring of Frost for a +5 ring of Focus, and Drake's for Supreme Ring, you'll pick up +22 healing and more healing spells than a Cleric. You can also spell surge to close the gap even more - at the cost of +4 damage on the build.

OrionW wrote: Druid casters don’t have the same damage as Wizards or ability to hit multiple enemies with one spell.

I can create a Druid spell build - I'm pretty sure the druid can hit +34 spell damage, just like the wizard, trading AoE spells for spell surge.

Edit, I was wrong - the Druid can hit +35 spell damage due to greater mistletoe. Add bardsong for +39 with the earcuff of inspiration.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2dbe3ae2-246b-4f8b-b2e0-e762ef15410e

OrionW wrote: Druids are a half step behind where they should be in all 3 play styles.

Where should they be? Given they can do any of these 3 rolls, they really shouldn't be better than any of the comparable classes, correct?

The build you propose has none of the flexibility that folks point to when they keep asking to nerf Druid items.

It also just scrapes by at 120ish crit so it will never be tops on the damage charts.

I disagree with your assessment of support. Clerics will be in a very nice place after this Legendary. Druids won’t have the same other tools that Clerics offer.

Spell surge is nice, but not the same as a Wizard in room 7.

We are talking half a step here... I am not saying they are broken. I am saying there is plenty of room for The Quick Prayer ring in any of its forms so far proposes with out breaking the game balance.

Here, now it crits at 130, has +21 spell damage, +15 healing, and can swap all the spells to damage or healing on demand.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e0084dd2-6a6a-4437-8849-31ee9d96d26e

Adam Guay wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Raven wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Monster: "Oh look, that tasty Rogue is walking towards me with their Dagger that looks almost as big as a sword"
Rogue: "Surprise, sucker!" <Throws sword Dagger>
Monster: "I did not see that coming."

Thanks, Fiddy - that made me laugh

Picc wrote: Not knocking the power, just trying to keep the "Nightshade" prefix more consistent as I already have to have a printed card to explain what it does most room GMs and this is going to make it a lot more common in the years to come.

I agree that - where possible - keeping similar powers on similarly-named tokens is best. Less work for Coaches & DMs to remember. Less folks referring to TdB for clarifications. Less arguments in the dungeon.

Picc wrote: Honestly I'm not even sure why were changing it. There is still demand for the 2007 short sword, I personally use it over viperstrike to this day. In a vacuum the new throwing dagger seems stronger. If it were up to me, I would just do a reprint with the new graphic.

Me too. Or I *would* have.
But now that there's the possibility of a Sneak Attack weapon with Built-in SA at Range, I am salivating at the possibility, and it'd be hard to go back to the vanilla version.

That said Raven should sound off on this, since it is her eponymous prefix and there might be back end discussions we are not privy too.

Nope. Not that I'm aware of. And if there were, it would probably be me pestering Jeff to... I dunno... maybe add more Sapphires to the graphic ; )

Personally, I think it's a little overpowered (especially with the baked-in first round sneak option) but I've decided to stop commenting on it. Worst happens if we leave it alone: the Rogues get a *very* sweet new dagger which gives a Rare-level power to people who are still just making the jump from Rare to UR. But once people go beyond UR to Relic, they've got that power baked into the Relic, so it's not as big a deal. Worst happens if we keep arguing about it: Jeff uber-nerfs it, or removes it from the line up.

So I'll be here in the shadows, just biding my time.

Magical christmas land ...but what if this was a shuriken with returning from ring of the drake?

Perhaps, a +2 Viper Strike Shuriken? With a +3 relic upgrade?

yes let's ruin the Nightshare reprint that Rogues have been clamoring for and instead make it a Monk token!

I hope you were both cracking jokes

Can't speak for Adam, but I was trying to roll with what I assumed was a joke.

Yeah it's a joke...but a nightshades shuriken with returning off of the drakes ring would be fun.

Not knocking the idea of a relic shuriken but I'd avoid it on Nightshades as that's specifically a token for the Rogue Guild Master. Let it be a rogue dagger

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: The Druid legendary is designed for melee play. Epic level characters should be able to crit for 120+. Druids cannot.

What do you mean? This build can crit for 122 - I can optimize it further for more damage, but I aimed for >60hp (with 10 synergy bonus) and 20 or greater saves in every category.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/33c2f9dc-cdc1-466a-b790-c1f472099363

OrionW wrote: Druid healers do not have the same support abilities of Clerics.

Healing is a form of support. If you take the above build, trade Fiendish Charm for Spell Swapping, Ring of Frost for a +5 ring of Focus, and Drake's for Supreme Ring, you'll pick up +22 healing and more healing spells than a Cleric. You can also spell surge to close the gap even more - at the cost of +4 damage on the build.

OrionW wrote: Druid casters don’t have the same damage as Wizards or ability to hit multiple enemies with one spell.

I can create a Druid spell build - I'm pretty sure the druid can hit +34 spell damage, just like the wizard, trading AoE spells for spell surge.

Edit, I was wrong - the Druid can hit +35 spell damage due to greater mistletoe. Add bardsong for +39 with the earcuff of inspiration.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2dbe3ae2-246b-4f8b-b2e0-e762ef15410e

OrionW wrote: Druids are a half step behind where they should be in all 3 play styles.

Where should they be? Given they can do any of these 3 rolls, they really shouldn't be better than any of the comparable classes, correct?

The build you propose has none of the flexibility that folks point to when they keep asking to nerf Druid items.

It also just scrapes by at 120ish crit so it will never be tops on the damage charts.

I disagree with your assessment of support. Clerics will be in a very nice place after this Legendary. Druids won’t have the same other tools that Clerics offer.

Spell surge is nice, but not the same as a Wizard in room 7.

We are talking half a step here... I am not saying they are broken. I am saying there is plenty of room for The Quick Prayer ring in any of its forms so far proposes with out breaking the game balance.

Druid is a hybrid class. It can Melee, it can Heal, it can Spell Damage.

It SHOULDN'T be taking the top damage spot for any form of damage. That's the tradeoff for having access to all those forms of play.

You should NEVER see a Druid as top DPS in melee while also healing over 150HP in the same run. That would make no sense with the other classes who CAN'T heal or CAN'T damage spell to deal lower damage than the Druid.

Are you expecting the Druid should be able to be built to be stronger than a cleric in healing, wizard in spell casting or melee class in damage sliding?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Oh I'm not hating on Druids with this comment. I promise you that.

Pushing the Druid on the ring has caused the CLERIC SPECIFIC ring to be weakened for Clerics by the addition of Druids to the ring. That's not acceptable. Remove Druids and restore the original design of the token.

I looked at all versions of that ring, saw how strong it would be for Wizards, knew that adding Wizard would require nerfing the item and did the honorable thing. I DIDN'T ask to be put on the ring, even knowing how massive of a DPS boost that ring would be in our hands.


So far this design cycle I've seen you ask

Put Druids on the Ring of Expertise
Put Druids on the Ring of Quick Blessings
Put Druids on the Mad Evoker's Charm

And i've seen you state multiple times that Druids are weaker healers than Clerics and weaker spellcasters than Wizards multiple times, been shown the math doesn't agree with you and had you continue to spout it.

This is the year for the Wizard Fighter and Cleric legendary tokens. Maybe just step away from trying to push the Druid onto the tokens and just let the Clerics and Wizards get their own class legendaries without having them nerfed to serve Druids.

Jeff has already said he will be giving all existing legendary class tokens an overview after this design phase is finished. Just wait for that and push for a positive change on your class legendary neck.

That's just not accurate. Matthew did an analysis of Druid and Cleric and Cleric was slightly ahead after Figurine of Power: Phoenix. And that's before the Class Relic/Legendary. I'd say raising from the dead at full health not to mention Divine Intervention puts the Cleric VERY comfortably ahead.

If there were any Druid vs. Wizard comparisons I missed them. I did see an analysis of Druid which put it at around 900 points over 10 rounds, while I also saw multiple analysis of the Wizard at well over 100 per turn. I don't see how that equals the Druid being able to out-damage the Wizard. And I'm not sure if that's adding in the additional damage the Wizard will be getting from tokens this year.

If you there were, as you say, multiple analysis showing the Druid being more powerful in damage spells than the Wizard, please link to them, as I'd like to see them. I will admit that there were entire pages of comments which I haven't read, so they may well be there and I didn't see them.

There are a few specific situations that a Wizard can get over 100 damage in a single round but they are not by any means the average damage of 100+ per round for the Wizard. That's just incorrect.

I'll ask you the same thing. If there's proof of 100+ damage per round on the current Wizard BIS tokens please show it to me.

Perhaps those over 100 estimates were from earlier versions of the Wizard Legendary, but post 17 of the current Wizard Legendary thread shows 973 damage over 10 rounds, so that is just barely under 100 per round, and above the 901 Matthew calculated for the Druid over 10 rounds on post 85 of this very thread when the Ring of Quick Prayer didn't have the current restrictions on it and he was calculating 10 free action uses of Freezing Orb. So, even using the original version of Ring of Quick Prayer the Wizard was ahead.

That post calculates in a non existing potential token. Using that for the reasoning of saying Druid is weak is a logical fallacy.

You'd need to compare like to like for it to be a valid comparison. BIS 2020 Wizard to BIS 2020 Druid

Which admittedly that 900 damage did not take into account.

Perhaps Matt will grace us with a current BIS analysis

Actually, since we're probably nearly done with this process, this is a perfect time to do a BIS analysis of the classes using the tokens as designed. That would be a good way to see whether any of the classes are really unbalanced if these current tokens are implemented. Of course, if anyone had a 2020 BIS analysis as a baseline that is always good too.

This version of the tokens has already had 4 or 5 significant changes without the next image set being posted. That's not what I would call a good place to start.

If we don't do an analysis of where the various classes stand in the current iteration of the 2021 token set, we're doing this final analysis fairly blind, without knowing now this set is impacting the class power levels. It seems like if there are further changes, that can be recalculated, like Matthew did at the start of this iteration of the Wizard thread. Simply looking at where the classes stood before this token set tells us little about the impact of this set. Like claims that the Druid is both the best healer and best at spell damage, when neither seems to be the case, especially after this set is taken into account. That's how it seems to me at least.

Adam Guay wrote:

Raven wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Monster: "Oh look, that tasty Rogue is walking towards me with their Dagger that looks almost as big as a sword"
Rogue: "Surprise, sucker!" <Throws sword Dagger>
Monster: "I did not see that coming."

Thanks, Fiddy - that made me laugh

Picc wrote: Not knocking the power, just trying to keep the "Nightshade" prefix more consistent as I already have to have a printed card to explain what it does most room GMs and this is going to make it a lot more common in the years to come.

I agree that - where possible - keeping similar powers on similarly-named tokens is best. Less work for Coaches & DMs to remember. Less folks referring to TdB for clarifications. Less arguments in the dungeon.

Picc wrote: Honestly I'm not even sure why were changing it. There is still demand for the 2007 short sword, I personally use it over viperstrike to this day. In a vacuum the new throwing dagger seems stronger. If it were up to me, I would just do a reprint with the new graphic.

Me too. Or I *would* have.
But now that there's the possibility of a Sneak Attack weapon with Built-in SA at Range, I am salivating at the possibility, and it'd be hard to go back to the vanilla version.

That said Raven should sound off on this, since it is her eponymous prefix and there might be back end discussions we are not privy too.

Nope. Not that I'm aware of. And if there were, it would probably be me pestering Jeff to... I dunno... maybe add more Sapphires to the graphic ; )

Personally, I think it's a little overpowered (especially with the baked-in first round sneak option) but I've decided to stop commenting on it. Worst happens if we leave it alone: the Rogues get a *very* sweet new dagger which gives a Rare-level power to people who are still just making the jump from Rare to UR. But once people go beyond UR to Relic, they've got that power baked into the Relic, so it's not as big a deal. Worst happens if we keep arguing about it: Jeff uber-nerfs it, or removes it from the line up.

So I'll be here in the shadows, just biding my time.

Magical christmas land ...but what if this was a shuriken with returning from ring of the drake?

I know it was a joke, but just to be clear (and probably stomp all the fun out of a joke, sorry) shuriken can not be used in melee.

I don't even think it should be Flurry-of-Blows compatible. This is a Rogue item, let them have a nice item.

An Ultrarare shuriken could be fun next year though.

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: The Druid legendary is designed for melee play. Epic level characters should be able to crit for 120+. Druids cannot.

What do you mean? This build can crit for 122 - I can optimize it further for more damage, but I aimed for >60hp (with 10 synergy bonus) and 20 or greater saves in every category.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/33c2f9dc-cdc1-466a-b790-c1f472099363

OrionW wrote: Druid healers do not have the same support abilities of Clerics.

Healing is a form of support. If you take the above build, trade Fiendish Charm for Spell Swapping, Ring of Frost for a +5 ring of Focus, and Drake's for Supreme Ring, you'll pick up +22 healing and more healing spells than a Cleric. You can also spell surge to close the gap even more - at the cost of +4 damage on the build.

OrionW wrote: Druid casters don’t have the same damage as Wizards or ability to hit multiple enemies with one spell.

I can create a Druid spell build - I'm pretty sure the druid can hit +34 spell damage, just like the wizard, trading AoE spells for spell surge.

Edit, I was wrong - the Druid can hit +35 spell damage due to greater mistletoe. Add bardsong for +39 with the earcuff of inspiration.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2dbe3ae2-246b-4f8b-b2e0-e762ef15410e

OrionW wrote: Druids are a half step behind where they should be in all 3 play styles.

Where should they be? Given they can do any of these 3 rolls, they really shouldn't be better than any of the comparable classes, correct?

The build you propose has none of the flexibility that folks point to when they keep asking to nerf Druid items.

It also just scrapes by at 120ish crit so it will never be tops on the damage charts.

I disagree with your assessment of support. Clerics will be in a very nice place after this Legendary. Druids won’t have the same other tools that Clerics offer.

Spell surge is nice, but not the same as a Wizard in room 7.

We are talking half a step here... I am not saying they are broken. I am saying there is plenty of room for The Quick Prayer ring in any of its forms so far proposes with out breaking the game balance.

Here, now it crits at 130, has +21 spell damage, +15 healing, and can swap all the spells to damage or healing on demand.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e0084dd2-6a6a-4437-8849-31ee9d96d26e

* Low HPs
* Sub-standard saves
* No room for my charm of awakened synergy
* Also no room for the OMG the sky is falling super overpowered Quick Prayer ring.

Look I get what you are trying to do here, but you are kind of proving my point as you tweak this build. There is room for some Druid love.

Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?