TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

With Psyferre giving scroll reading to anyone, is there any harm in removing class restrictions from Ring of the Sirens? That's not a rhetorical question, I don't know enough about the scroll buffs out there to know if that would create issues. It seems though that it might be fun to give a little arcane flavor and capability if people are willing to devote the items to it.

I love everything on this, but can we turn it back into a charm, pretty please.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Oh I'm not hating on Druids with this comment. I promise you that.

Pushing the Druid on the ring has caused the CLERIC SPECIFIC ring to be weakened for Clerics by the addition of Druids to the ring. That's not acceptable. Remove Druids and restore the original design of the token.

I looked at all versions of that ring, saw how strong it would be for Wizards, knew that adding Wizard would require nerfing the item and did the honorable thing. I DIDN'T ask to be put on the ring, even knowing how massive of a DPS boost that ring would be in our hands.


So far this design cycle I've seen you ask

Put Druids on the Ring of Expertise
Put Druids on the Ring of Quick Blessings
Put Druids on the Mad Evoker's Charm

And i've seen you state multiple times that Druids are weaker healers than Clerics and weaker spellcasters than Wizards multiple times, been shown the math doesn't agree with you and had you continue to spout it.

This is the year for the Wizard Fighter and Cleric legendary tokens. Maybe just step away from trying to push the Druid onto the tokens and just let the Clerics and Wizards get their own class legendaries without having them nerfed to serve Druids.

Jeff has already said he will be giving all existing legendary class tokens an overview after this design phase is finished. Just wait for that and push for a positive change on your class legendary neck.

That's just not accurate. Matthew did an analysis of Druid and Cleric and Cleric was slightly ahead after Figurine of Power: Phoenix. And that's before the Class Relic/Legendary. I'd say raising from the dead at full health not to mention Divine Intervention puts the Cleric VERY comfortably ahead.

If there were any Druid vs. Wizard comparisons I missed them. I did see an analysis of Druid which put it at around 900 points over 10 rounds, while I also saw multiple analysis of the Wizard at well over 100 per turn. I don't see how that equals the Druid being able to out-damage the Wizard. And I'm not sure if that's adding in the additional damage the Wizard will be getting from tokens this year.

If you there were, as you say, multiple analysis showing the Druid being more powerful in damage spells than the Wizard, please link to them, as I'd like to see them. I will admit that there were entire pages of comments which I haven't read, so they may well be there and I didn't see them.

There are a few specific situations that a Wizard can get over 100 damage in a single round but they are not by any means the average damage of 100+ per round for the Wizard. That's just incorrect.

I'll ask you the same thing. If there's proof of 100+ damage per round on the current Wizard BIS tokens please show it to me.

Perhaps those over 100 estimates were from earlier versions of the Wizard Legendary, but post 17 of the current Wizard Legendary thread shows 973 damage over 10 rounds, so that is just barely under 100 per round, and above the 901 Matthew calculated for the Druid over 10 rounds on post 85 of this very thread when the Ring of Quick Prayer didn't have the current restrictions on it and he was calculating 10 free action uses of Freezing Orb. So, even using the original version of Ring of Quick Prayer the Wizard was ahead.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Ha!! Made me laugh. Good one Mike.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Oh I'm not hating on Druids with this comment. I promise you that.

Pushing the Druid on the ring has caused the CLERIC SPECIFIC ring to be weakened for Clerics by the addition of Druids to the ring. That's not acceptable. Remove Druids and restore the original design of the token.

I looked at all versions of that ring, saw how strong it would be for Wizards, knew that adding Wizard would require nerfing the item and did the honorable thing. I DIDN'T ask to be put on the ring, even knowing how massive of a DPS boost that ring would be in our hands.


So far this design cycle I've seen you ask

Put Druids on the Ring of Expertise
Put Druids on the Ring of Quick Blessings
Put Druids on the Mad Evoker's Charm

And i've seen you state multiple times that Druids are weaker healers than Clerics and weaker spellcasters than Wizards multiple times, been shown the math doesn't agree with you and had you continue to spout it.

This is the year for the Wizard Fighter and Cleric legendary tokens. Maybe just step away from trying to push the Druid onto the tokens and just let the Clerics and Wizards get their own class legendaries without having them nerfed to serve Druids.

Jeff has already said he will be giving all existing legendary class tokens an overview after this design phase is finished. Just wait for that and push for a positive change on your class legendary neck.

That's just not accurate. Matthew did an analysis of Druid and Cleric and Cleric was slightly ahead after Figurine of Power: Phoenix. And that's before the Class Relic/Legendary. I'd say raising from the dead at full health not to mention Divine Intervention puts the Cleric VERY comfortably ahead.

If there were any Druid vs. Wizard comparisons I missed them. I did see an analysis of Druid which put it at around 900 points over 10 rounds, while I also saw multiple analysis of the Wizard at well over 100 per turn. I don't see how that equals the Druid being able to out-damage the Wizard. And I'm not sure if that's adding in the additional damage the Wizard will be getting from tokens this year.

If you there were, as you say, multiple analysis showing the Druid being more powerful in damage spells than the Wizard, please link to them, as I'd like to see them. I will admit that there were entire pages of comments which I haven't read, so they may well be there and I didn't see them.

There are a few specific situations that a Wizard can get over 100 damage in a single round but they are not by any means the average damage of 100+ per round for the Wizard. That's just incorrect.

I'll ask you the same thing. If there's proof of 100+ damage per round on the current Wizard BIS tokens please show it to me.

Perhaps those over 100 estimates were from earlier versions of the Wizard Legendary, but post 17 of the current Wizard Legendary thread shows 973 damage over 10 rounds, so that is just barely under 100 per round, and above the 901 Matthew calculated for the Druid over 10 rounds on post 85 of this very thread when the Ring of Quick Prayer didn't have the current restrictions on it and he was calculating 10 free action uses of Freezing Orb. So, even using the original version of Ring of Quick Prayer the Wizard was ahead.

That post calculates in a non existing potential token. Using that for the reasoning of saying Druid is weak is a logical fallacy.

You'd need to compare like to like for it to be a valid comparison. BIS 2020 Wizard to BIS 2020 Druid

Which admittedly that 900 damage did not take into account.

Perhaps Matt will grace us with a current BIS analysis

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Oh I'm not hating on Druids with this comment. I promise you that.

Pushing the Druid on the ring has caused the CLERIC SPECIFIC ring to be weakened for Clerics by the addition of Druids to the ring. That's not acceptable. Remove Druids and restore the original design of the token.

I looked at all versions of that ring, saw how strong it would be for Wizards, knew that adding Wizard would require nerfing the item and did the honorable thing. I DIDN'T ask to be put on the ring, even knowing how massive of a DPS boost that ring would be in our hands.


So far this design cycle I've seen you ask

Put Druids on the Ring of Expertise
Put Druids on the Ring of Quick Blessings
Put Druids on the Mad Evoker's Charm

And i've seen you state multiple times that Druids are weaker healers than Clerics and weaker spellcasters than Wizards multiple times, been shown the math doesn't agree with you and had you continue to spout it.

This is the year for the Wizard Fighter and Cleric legendary tokens. Maybe just step away from trying to push the Druid onto the tokens and just let the Clerics and Wizards get their own class legendaries without having them nerfed to serve Druids.

Jeff has already said he will be giving all existing legendary class tokens an overview after this design phase is finished. Just wait for that and push for a positive change on your class legendary neck.

That's just not accurate. Matthew did an analysis of Druid and Cleric and Cleric was slightly ahead after Figurine of Power: Phoenix. And that's before the Class Relic/Legendary. I'd say raising from the dead at full health not to mention Divine Intervention puts the Cleric VERY comfortably ahead.

If there were any Druid vs. Wizard comparisons I missed them. I did see an analysis of Druid which put it at around 900 points over 10 rounds, while I also saw multiple analysis of the Wizard at well over 100 per turn. I don't see how that equals the Druid being able to out-damage the Wizard. And I'm not sure if that's adding in the additional damage the Wizard will be getting from tokens this year.

If you there were, as you say, multiple analysis showing the Druid being more powerful in damage spells than the Wizard, please link to them, as I'd like to see them. I will admit that there were entire pages of comments which I haven't read, so they may well be there and I didn't see them.

There are a few specific situations that a Wizard can get over 100 damage in a single round but they are not by any means the average damage of 100+ per round for the Wizard. That's just incorrect.

I'll ask you the same thing. If there's proof of 100+ damage per round on the current Wizard BIS tokens please show it to me.

Perhaps those over 100 estimates were from earlier versions of the Wizard Legendary, but post 17 of the current Wizard Legendary thread shows 973 damage over 10 rounds, so that is just barely under 100 per round, and above the 901 Matthew calculated for the Druid over 10 rounds on post 85 of this very thread when the Ring of Quick Prayer didn't have the current restrictions on it and he was calculating 10 free action uses of Freezing Orb. So, even using the original version of Ring of Quick Prayer the Wizard was ahead.

That druid also has healing abilities to fall back on and the wizard would have burned 50 HP getting to that point.

Far too many comparisons of Wizard damage gloss over the fact that a 10 round simulation guarantees the Wizard is dead if they do not expend consumables or receive outside healing.

There's no calculation given to account for that.

What if we put all four casting classes on both rings with the stipulation that if you're playing on hardcore or less its once per game and nightmare and up its once or room.

Adam Guay wrote: What if we put all four casting classes on both rings with the stipulation that if you're playing on hardcore or less its once per game and nightmare and up its once or room.

Punish players who don't play Nightnare?

That doesn't sound like a wise token design.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: What if we put all four casting classes on both rings with the stipulation that if you're playing on hardcore or less its once per game and nightmare and up its once or room.

Punish players who don't play Nightnare?

That doesn't sound like a wise token design.

Maybe trying to scale token with difficulty....maybe wondering why someone argues about druid token strength when they probably obliterate everything on hardcore.

Adam Guay wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: What if we put all four casting classes on both rings with the stipulation that if you're playing on hardcore or less its once per game and nightmare and up its once or room.

Punish players who don't play Nightnare?

That doesn't sound like a wise token design.

Maybe trying to scale token with difficulty....maybe wondering why someone argues about druid token strength when they probably obliterate everything on hardcore.

Any suggestion to make a token weaker on Hardcore or less is not a good suggestion from a design standpoint. It emphasizes players pushing to higher difficulties before they are ready in order to "unlock" the full power of their token and can lead to a negative play experience.

I understand where you are coming from but I'd avoid is as a design decision due to it's likelyhood of creating negative play experiences for lower tier players who we need playing in order for the game to be sustainable.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Oh I'm not hating on Druids with this comment. I promise you that.

Pushing the Druid on the ring has caused the CLERIC SPECIFIC ring to be weakened for Clerics by the addition of Druids to the ring. That's not acceptable. Remove Druids and restore the original design of the token.

I looked at all versions of that ring, saw how strong it would be for Wizards, knew that adding Wizard would require nerfing the item and did the honorable thing. I DIDN'T ask to be put on the ring, even knowing how massive of a DPS boost that ring would be in our hands.


So far this design cycle I've seen you ask

Put Druids on the Ring of Expertise
Put Druids on the Ring of Quick Blessings
Put Druids on the Mad Evoker's Charm

And i've seen you state multiple times that Druids are weaker healers than Clerics and weaker spellcasters than Wizards multiple times, been shown the math doesn't agree with you and had you continue to spout it.

This is the year for the Wizard Fighter and Cleric legendary tokens. Maybe just step away from trying to push the Druid onto the tokens and just let the Clerics and Wizards get their own class legendaries without having them nerfed to serve Druids.

Jeff has already said he will be giving all existing legendary class tokens an overview after this design phase is finished. Just wait for that and push for a positive change on your class legendary neck.

That's just not accurate. Matthew did an analysis of Druid and Cleric and Cleric was slightly ahead after Figurine of Power: Phoenix. And that's before the Class Relic/Legendary. I'd say raising from the dead at full health not to mention Divine Intervention puts the Cleric VERY comfortably ahead.

If there were any Druid vs. Wizard comparisons I missed them. I did see an analysis of Druid which put it at around 900 points over 10 rounds, while I also saw multiple analysis of the Wizard at well over 100 per turn. I don't see how that equals the Druid being able to out-damage the Wizard. And I'm not sure if that's adding in the additional damage the Wizard will be getting from tokens this year.

If you there were, as you say, multiple analysis showing the Druid being more powerful in damage spells than the Wizard, please link to them, as I'd like to see them. I will admit that there were entire pages of comments which I haven't read, so they may well be there and I didn't see them.

There are a few specific situations that a Wizard can get over 100 damage in a single round but they are not by any means the average damage of 100+ per round for the Wizard. That's just incorrect.

I'll ask you the same thing. If there's proof of 100+ damage per round on the current Wizard BIS tokens please show it to me.

Perhaps those over 100 estimates were from earlier versions of the Wizard Legendary, but post 17 of the current Wizard Legendary thread shows 973 damage over 10 rounds, so that is just barely under 100 per round, and above the 901 Matthew calculated for the Druid over 10 rounds on post 85 of this very thread when the Ring of Quick Prayer didn't have the current restrictions on it and he was calculating 10 free action uses of Freezing Orb. So, even using the original version of Ring of Quick Prayer the Wizard was ahead.

That post calculates in a non existing potential token. Using that for the reasoning of saying Druid is weak is a logical fallacy.

You'd need to compare like to like for it to be a valid comparison. BIS 2020 Wizard to BIS 2020 Druid

Which admittedly that 900 damage did not take into account.

Perhaps Matt will grace us with a current BIS analysis

Actually, since we're probably nearly done with this process, this is a perfect time to do a BIS analysis of the classes using the tokens as designed. That would be a good way to see whether any of the classes are really unbalanced if these current tokens are implemented. Of course, if anyone had a 2020 BIS analysis as a baseline that is always good too.