TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee but still has a spell bonus of say, +20 gets to tack on a 28 point Freezing Orb every round for 10 rounds (with charm of spell swapping). I think they might end up outdamaging Fighters or Barbarians (Druids get Keen polymorph for the 19-20 crit range and +5 damage when polymorphed).

Put another way: A BiS melee Fighter/Barbarian will need to be dealing ~30 more points a round than Polymorph/Melee Druid to keep up with a FA 28 point Freezing Orb.

I'll plan to run the numbers on that tomorrow.

My thought would be to do one of:

1. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA healing spells.
2. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA be non-damage spells.
3. Limit the ring to 1/room.
4. Add Wizards to the ring, in which case it's fine as is

TL:DR; BiS Poly/Melee Focused Druids can get 200-300 damage over 7-10 rounds of combat by casting Free Action Freezing Orbs. A melee-polymorph focused BiS Druid will do the same damage as a BiS barbarian due to this ring.

As promised!

Here is a BiS Druid building towards Polymorph + Maximizing Level 1 spell casts as a free action with the Free Action ring casting Freezing Orb.

The build has room for all 4 treasure Iouns, and Charm of Avarice.

Important details:
Melee hit 20: With VTD this is auto-hitting on 2+ on d10 vs. Nightmare AC (and most Epic AC, most likely all with Prayer/Bardsong).

Damage while Polymorphed: +47, average damage wheel from Iktomi's: 9.5. Crit range 19-20.

Spell damage: +20, spell swap 7 higher level spells into Freezing Orb.

Expected damage over 10 rounds, using VTD rules:

Melee:
10 rounds * ( 47 poly damage + 9.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit chance + 2*0.2 crit chance ) = 621
Free Action Freezing Orbs:
10 casts * ( 8 freezing orb + 20 spell damage) = 280

Druid Total: 901 (931 if you pass skill tests on Freezing Orb)

This Druid also has a healing bonus of +15 (Cavadar will bump to 17), and 4 cure minor and 2 cure light, so they get to dish out:

4*(1+15 cure minor) + 2*(5 or 8 + 15 cure light) = 144 points of healing over the adventure on top of that.

---

By comparison Trentus the Barbarian has a to-hit of 22, melee damage of +60. 12.83 average weapon damage.

Room 1: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 218

Room 2, Rage: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 236

Room 3, 2nd Rage:
Round 1, 2 - use Fury: 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 2*0.9 crit chance ) = 284
Round 3, 4 - 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 158

Barbarian Total: 896

---

Given that Druids are very versatile, I do not thing it is right that they can choose to build to melee parity with Barbarians, while also being able to choose to build build to at or very near healing parity with Clerics.

Suggestions: Make the free action ring non-damage spells, or healing only spells, or 1/room.

---

Trentus:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=561&id=250857&start=0

Druid build:

Dearshul - Destroyer of Worlds
Class: Druid

STR: 34
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 19
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 20 Damage: 33 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 2 Damage: 11 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 20 Heal: 15 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 4 Fort: 8 Will: 9

Treasure:
Min: 3 Max: 3

Health: 41

Damage Reduction:

Melee	Range	Spell	Fire	Cold	Shock	Sonic	Eldritch	Poison	Darkrift	Sacred
0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

Melee Mainhand: Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus
Melee Offhand: Brawler’s Mug (Rare)
Ranged Mainhand: Empty
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Arcane Earcuff
Right Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Neck: Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
Bead: EmptyTorso: Sill’s Anointed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Guided Strike
Hands: Gloves of the Brute
Back: EmptyRing: Ring of the Drake
Ring: Ring of the Eel
Waist: Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Strength
Shins: EmptyBoots: Boots of the Four Winds
Figurine: EmptyCharm: Charm of Glory
Charm: Charm of Spell Swapping
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Runestone: Empty

How is this?

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee but still has a spell bonus of say, +20 gets to tack on a 28 point Freezing Orb every round for 10 rounds (with charm of spell swapping). I think they might end up outdamaging Fighters or Barbarians (Druids get Keen polymorph for the 19-20 crit range and +5 damage when polymorphed).

Put another way: A BiS melee Fighter/Barbarian will need to be dealing ~30 more points a round than Polymorph/Melee Druid to keep up with a FA 28 point Freezing Orb.

I'll plan to run the numbers on that tomorrow.

My thought would be to do one of:

1. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA healing spells.
2. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA be non-damage spells.
3. Limit the ring to 1/room.
4. Add Wizards to the ring, in which case it's fine as is

TL:DR; BiS Poly/Melee Focused Druids can get 200-300 damage over 7-10 rounds of combat by casting Free Action Freezing Orbs. A melee-polymorph focused BiS Druid will do the same damage as a BiS barbarian due to this ring.

As promised!

Here is a BiS Druid building towards Polymorph + Maximizing Level 1 spell casts as a free action with the Free Action ring casting Freezing Orb.

The build has room for all 4 treasure Iouns, and Charm of Avarice.

Important details:
Melee hit 20: With VTD this is auto-hitting on 2+ on d10 vs. Nightmare AC (and most Epic AC, most likely all with Prayer/Bardsong).

Damage while Polymorphed: +47, average damage wheel from Iktomi's: 9.5. Crit range 19-20.

Spell damage: +20, spell swap 7 higher level spells into Freezing Orb.

Expected damage over 10 rounds, using VTD rules:

Melee:
10 rounds * ( 47 poly damage + 9.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit chance + 2*0.2 crit chance ) = 621
Free Action Freezing Orbs:
10 casts * ( 8 freezing orb + 20 spell damage) = 280

Druid Total: 901 (931 if you pass skill tests on Freezing Orb)

This Druid also has a healing bonus of +15 (Cavadar will bump to 17), and 4 cure minor and 2 cure light, so they get to dish out:

4*(1+15 cure minor) + 2*(5 or 8 + 15 cure light) = 144 points of healing over the adventure on top of that.

---

By comparison Trentus the Barbarian has a to-hit of 22, melee damage of +60. 12.83 average weapon damage.

Room 1: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 218

Room 2, Rage: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 236

Room 3, 2nd Rage:
Round 1, 2 - use Fury: 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 2*0.9 crit chance ) = 284
Round 3, 4 - 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 158

Barbarian Total: 896

---

Given that Druids are very versatile, I do not thing it is right that they can choose to build to melee parity with Barbarians, while also being able to choose to build build to at or very near healing parity with Clerics.

Suggestions: Make the free action ring non-damage spells, or healing only spells, or 1/room.

---

Trentus:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=561&id=250857&start=0

Druid build:

Dearshul - Destroyer of Worlds
Class: Druid

STR: 34
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 19
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 20 Damage: 33 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 2 Damage: 11 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 20 Heal: 15 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 4 Fort: 8 Will: 9

Treasure:
Min: 3 Max: 3

Health: 41

Damage Reduction:

Melee	Range	Spell	Fire	Cold	Shock	Sonic	Eldritch	Poison	Darkrift	Sacred
0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

Melee Mainhand: Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus
Melee Offhand: Brawler’s Mug (Rare)
Ranged Mainhand: Empty
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Arcane Earcuff
Right Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Neck: Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
Bead: EmptyTorso: Sill’s Anointed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Guided Strike
Hands: Gloves of the Brute
Back: EmptyRing: Ring of the Drake
Ring: Ring of the Eel
Waist: Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Strength
Shins: EmptyBoots: Boots of the Four Winds
Figurine: EmptyCharm: Charm of Glory
Charm: Charm of Spell Swapping
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Runestone: Empty

How is this?

Please no. Please don't nerf it for the Clerics it was originally intended for, just to keep the Druids on it.

kurtreznor wrote:

Arnold wrote: Free action casts of any damage spell from any class are problematic.

They shouldn't be allowed lightly. We all know the huge issue with Rangers and Monks adding their modifiers 2x per round.

If I were to fix this ring, I'd limit Druid use of the ring to 1/room and leave Clerics with unlimited. Kind of a nod to the design of last year's UR ingredients.

I could see taking Druids off altogether, too. I hope they aren't.

Ring of quick prayer. Oh boy, here we go...

I like it. I will get it for druid (and use it as cleric if I play cleric, of course). I DO have the druid legendary. I do NOT have a charm of spell swapping. So, here is how it looks for me.

Primarily polymorph, every combat when able. If there is a no melee combat, switch to spellcasting; cast all the best damage spells, but have very small bonus (I think +7, now). This ring will allow adding a couple free action damage spells to whichever combat they are needed AND I can give a few heals without stopping my attacks.

This is very powerful, but not TOO powerful.

HOWEVER, the charm of spell swapping. If converting a spell down is allowed with the ring, this becomes REALLY strong...like, best in slot.
Honestly, it would be strong enough that I would need to put in another $250 order ASAP to get a charm of spell swapping.

BUT, I could see a case made to not allow it to work. Maybe the action has to be valid BEFORE you swap the spell. So, first, check to see if you can cast that level 2 spell as a free action. No? Full stop. No chance to swap down to level 1.

Another option to resolve this AND BASICALLY EVERY ARGUMENT THAT DRUID WILL BE TOO POWERFUL: please remove druid from charm of spell swapping. Without it, druids have no chance of matching clerics on healing or wizards on spell damage...and maybe then druids will be allowed to have cool toys.


If TPTB decide to change the new ring to avoid the power boost, please leave the cleric ability alone. This is a great item for clerics as is, don't screw it up for them. But again, please consider either fix above for druids rather than removing them. Thanks.

I would say that for a free action spell, you have have that actual spell level. No sacking of higher level spells. This seems to work within the intent of the actual token. I do not know if this is how it's been historically interpreted (or has come up).

I don't think it's possible to remove druids on charm of spell swapping. Too old of a token, plus it's part of the druid legendary. And it's really this new token interpretation that is causes grief.

Edit, just saw Jeff posted.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee.... blah blah blah math.

How is this?

That looks good to me.

(And in line with RoSS / Cabal Set bonus levels of power at UR).

Big improvement. I think Bard could stand to be added to the token.

This seems like a good change. The other token was too good for clerics as well as druids and was going to be become one of those tokens folks always ask for reprints of. This keeps it closer to UR level in power.

Daniel White wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Daniel White wrote: What about changing the Ring of Quick Prayer to non-damaging, non-healing spells of any level?

Over laps cleric relic. Outside of bless and prayer, what would be the desired spells this would enable? I think bard would like it, but I’m not sure there is a spell would convince anyone else to equip it

Some overlap yeah, Cleric relic is limited to 2nd level spells. This would not be, which opens up Bless and Guidance. I am ok with it not being that attractive for classes outside of Bard and Cleric. Perhaps with those changes it could go to a weaker slot, like Bracers?

Bracers overlaps with arcane set which is still in print. With charm of glory, ring slot is fairly open for clerics I think. Ring of spell storing is almost as expensive as a relic, ring of greater focus is even more expensive, and I think the supply is starting to dwindle. What else is left that is very appealing to a cleric?

Honestly, if Ring of Expertise were limited to non healing spells, I could see a new UR, non relic, cleric doubling up on the rings. FA cast bless that doesn’t get marked off the card, cast prayer off the card.

There is also an amusing angle on ring of expertise with these new UR clerics - you could use spiritual hammer once a room, which would be more damage than sliding the +2 baton of focus. If faced with a flying creature, you could cast spiritual hammer twice before you have to resort to your sling.

Edit
Now I kind of want to try playing a spiritual hammer build. It’s kind of, but not really, like the heal to damage spell holy symbol.

Fiddy wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:
How is this?

Please no. Please don't nerf it for the Clerics it was originally intended for, just to keep the Druids on it.

I think it would be balanced at unlimited uses for the cleric. 1/room for Druid.

Fiddy wrote: How is this?

Please no. Please don't nerf it for the Clerics it was originally intended for, just to keep the Druids on it.[/quote]

How is this?

Restore Power 5/game?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee.... blah blah blah math.

How is this?

That looks good to me.

(And in line with RoSS / Cabal Set bonus levels of power at UR).

Can I cast bless as a free action in round one, then use restore spell as a free action in round 2? This would be OK.

I think the better solution is to not have a room limit, but to only allow non damage spells and restore spell as a FA.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee but still has a spell bonus of say, +20 gets to tack on a 28 point Freezing Orb every round for 10 rounds (with charm of spell swapping). I think they might end up outdamaging Fighters or Barbarians (Druids get Keen polymorph for the 19-20 crit range and +5 damage when polymorphed).

Put another way: A BiS melee Fighter/Barbarian will need to be dealing ~30 more points a round than Polymorph/Melee Druid to keep up with a FA 28 point Freezing Orb.

I'll plan to run the numbers on that tomorrow.

My thought would be to do one of:

1. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA healing spells.
2. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA be non-damage spells.
3. Limit the ring to 1/room.
4. Add Wizards to the ring, in which case it's fine as is

TL:DR; BiS Poly/Melee Focused Druids can get 200-300 damage over 7-10 rounds of combat by casting Free Action Freezing Orbs. A melee-polymorph focused BiS Druid will do the same damage as a BiS barbarian due to this ring.

As promised!

Here is a BiS Druid building towards Polymorph + Maximizing Level 1 spell casts as a free action with the Free Action ring casting Freezing Orb.

The build has room for all 4 treasure Iouns, and Charm of Avarice.

Important details:
Melee hit 20: With VTD this is auto-hitting on 2+ on d10 vs. Nightmare AC (and most Epic AC, most likely all with Prayer/Bardsong).

Damage while Polymorphed: +47, average damage wheel from Iktomi's: 9.5. Crit range 19-20.

Spell damage: +20, spell swap 7 higher level spells into Freezing Orb.

Expected damage over 10 rounds, using VTD rules:

Melee:
10 rounds * ( 47 poly damage + 9.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit chance + 2*0.2 crit chance ) = 621
Free Action Freezing Orbs:
10 casts * ( 8 freezing orb + 20 spell damage) = 280

Druid Total: 901 (931 if you pass skill tests on Freezing Orb)

This Druid also has a healing bonus of +15 (Cavadar will bump to 17), and 4 cure minor and 2 cure light, so they get to dish out:

4*(1+15 cure minor) + 2*(5 or 8 + 15 cure light) = 144 points of healing over the adventure on top of that.

---

By comparison Trentus the Barbarian has a to-hit of 22, melee damage of +60. 12.83 average weapon damage.

Room 1: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 218

Room 2, Rage: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 236

Room 3, 2nd Rage:
Round 1, 2 - use Fury: 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 2*0.9 crit chance ) = 284
Round 3, 4 - 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 158

Barbarian Total: 896

---

Given that Druids are very versatile, I do not thing it is right that they can choose to build to melee parity with Barbarians, while also being able to choose to build build to at or very near healing parity with Clerics.

Suggestions: Make the free action ring non-damage spells, or healing only spells, or 1/room.

---

Trentus:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=561&id=250857&start=0

Druid build:

Dearshul - Destroyer of Worlds
Class: Druid

STR: 34
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 19
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 20 Damage: 33 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 2 Damage: 11 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 20 Heal: 15 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 4 Fort: 8 Will: 9

Treasure:
Min: 3 Max: 3

Health: 41

Damage Reduction:

Melee	Range	Spell	Fire	Cold	Shock	Sonic	Eldritch	Poison	Darkrift	Sacred
0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

Melee Mainhand: Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus
Melee Offhand: Brawler’s Mug (Rare)
Ranged Mainhand: Empty
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Arcane Earcuff
Right Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Neck: Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
Bead: EmptyTorso: Sill’s Anointed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Guided Strike
Hands: Gloves of the Brute
Back: EmptyRing: Ring of the Drake
Ring: Ring of the Eel
Waist: Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Strength
Shins: EmptyBoots: Boots of the Four Winds
Figurine: EmptyCharm: Charm of Glory
Charm: Charm of Spell Swapping
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Runestone: Empty

How is this?

Jeff,

That isn't strong enough to equip, it's not worth a Ring Slot. I think it's all right to give the Druid a nice token. If Matthew were to have done the comparison versus Wizard potential damage, I think you'd see that the Wizard is still well ahead of the Druid as far as damage dealing, even with this Ring in it's former version.