TOPIC: 2021 Rare Almost Final!

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can I use any instrument to performing Bardsong, and also do a lore check simultaneously from the Necklace of the Songbird?

Yep!

Endgame wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Most of the class amulets I can see getting a lot of use in Red builds but the Bard one feels very weak. The Lyre of Lore is quite easy to find and is also one of the best instruments for a Red player to use. How about something like: Bardsong bonus gains +1 hit & damage for rest of room (1/game)?

Doesn’t the bard neck item allow:

Round 1) play lyre of echos, do lore check.
Round 2) attack due to lyre of echos
Round3) bardsong with echos
Round 4) attack

All while adding +2 Dex?

I suppose this depends on the preferences of the individual bard. The party would loose out on the extra +2 damage from the Lyre of Lore for the bard to make probably one attack (if most combats don't go past 3 rounds). In many cases I think this would be a net loss on overall party damage. Some bards want to slide and some don't. What I proposed, or something similar, may be more useful for both types of bard.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Also Holy Cats. Necklace of the Woodlands.

+3 to hit with melee weapons is a UR hands slot item - hands are very powerful for melee - perhaps more powerful than neck.

+4 to hit with ranged is 1 better than a UR Eye slot item.

So this gives you your choice of two ~UR effects (hands, eyes) at Rare in the neck slot.

I think this could be toned down to a choice of +3 ranged/+2 melee, or even a choice of +2 of either and still be OK.

I think you can safely keep ranged higher than melee - if it needs to be hit only, I prefer +3 hit ranged (more than exalted creeper amulet), and +2 hit melee (more than amulet of vigor, but no damage or hp bonus).

The suggestion I liked from the last thread was +2 hit and damage for range, +1 hit and damage for melee. Its intuitive (I think) for a new player as for them its 1 puck vs 2, so the 1 puck item gets a double bonus.

This from someone who thought Amulet of Vigor didn't go far enough. I agree, Woodlands is still too good.

Jeff does love his rangers though.....

BrainScan wrote:

Endgame wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Most of the class amulets I can see getting a lot of use in Red builds but the Bard one feels very weak. The Lyre of Lore is quite easy to find and is also one of the best instruments for a Red player to use. How about something like: Bardsong bonus gains +1 hit & damage for rest of room (1/game)?

Doesn’t the bard neck item allow:

Round 1) play lyre of echos, do lore check.
Round 2) attack due to lyre of echos
Round3) bardsong with echos
Round 4) attack

All while adding +2 Dex?

I suppose this depends on the preferences of the individual bard. The party would loose out on the extra +2 damage from the Lyre of Lore for the bard to make probably one attack (if most combats don't go past 3 rounds). In many cases I think this would be a net loss on overall party damage. Some bards want to slide and some don't. What I proposed, or something similar, may be more useful for both types of bard.

Thinking about it more, doing something like "May take an action and perform Bardsong at the same time (1/room)" might be more helpful to all different bard types. Those using Lyre of Lore could slide or use a spell second round. Those using Echos could still do a Monster Lore. Same with the blowgun flute.

BrainScan wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Endgame wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Most of the class amulets I can see getting a lot of use in Red builds but the Bard one feels very weak. The Lyre of Lore is quite easy to find and is also one of the best instruments for a Red player to use. How about something like: Bardsong bonus gains +1 hit & damage for rest of room (1/game)?

Doesn’t the bard neck item allow:

Round 1) play lyre of echos, do lore check.
Round 2) attack due to lyre of echos
Round3) bardsong with echos
Round 4) attack

All while adding +2 Dex?

I suppose this depends on the preferences of the individual bard. The party would loose out on the extra +2 damage from the Lyre of Lore for the bard to make probably one attack (if most combats don't go past 3 rounds). In many cases I think this would be a net loss on overall party damage. Some bards want to slide and some don't. What I proposed, or something similar, may be more useful for both types of bard.

Thinking about it more, doing something like "May take an action and perform Bardsong at the same time (1/room)" might be more helpful to all different bard types. Those using Lyre of Lore could slide or use a spell second round. Those using Echos could still do a Monster Lore. Same with the blowgun flute.

Take any type of action was party of the bard legendary. Previous bard URs each restricted to a specific thing, e.g., attack. They also add a boost to the values too.

Maybe 1/run would be more in line with a rare power.

edwin wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Endgame wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Most of the class amulets I can see getting a lot of use in Red builds but the Bard one feels very weak. The Lyre of Lore is quite easy to find and is also one of the best instruments for a Red player to use. How about something like: Bardsong bonus gains +1 hit & damage for rest of room (1/game)?

Doesn’t the bard neck item allow:

Round 1) play lyre of echos, do lore check.
Round 2) attack due to lyre of echos
Round3) bardsong with echos
Round 4) attack

All while adding +2 Dex?

I suppose this depends on the preferences of the individual bard. The party would loose out on the extra +2 damage from the Lyre of Lore for the bard to make probably one attack (if most combats don't go past 3 rounds). In many cases I think this would be a net loss on overall party damage. Some bards want to slide and some don't. What I proposed, or something similar, may be more useful for both types of bard.

Thinking about it more, doing something like "May take an action and perform Bardsong at the same time (1/room)" might be more helpful to all different bard types. Those using Lyre of Lore could slide or use a spell second round. Those using Echos could still do a Monster Lore. Same with the blowgun flute.

Take any type of action was party of the bard legendary. Previous bard URs each restricted to a specific thing, e.g., attack. They also add a boost to the values too.

Maybe 1/run would be more in line with a rare power.

Any type of action is at the relic level not the legendary. Getting an extra action once per combat instead of 3-4 times a combat seems reasonable to me. I could also see limiting it to Monster Lore and Attack if really necessary. Right now it just seems much less useful than an extra use of Spell Surge or 40 points of healing.

BrainScan wrote:

edwin wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Endgame wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Most of the class amulets I can see getting a lot of use in Red builds but the Bard one feels very weak. The Lyre of Lore is quite easy to find and is also one of the best instruments for a Red player to use. How about something like: Bardsong bonus gains +1 hit & damage for rest of room (1/game)?

Doesn’t the bard neck item allow:

Round 1) play lyre of echos, do lore check.
Round 2) attack due to lyre of echos
Round3) bardsong with echos
Round 4) attack

All while adding +2 Dex?

I suppose this depends on the preferences of the individual bard. The party would loose out on the extra +2 damage from the Lyre of Lore for the bard to make probably one attack (if most combats don't go past 3 rounds). In many cases I think this would be a net loss on overall party damage. Some bards want to slide and some don't. What I proposed, or something similar, may be more useful for both types of bard.

Thinking about it more, doing something like "May take an action and perform Bardsong at the same time (1/room)" might be more helpful to all different bard types. Those using Lyre of Lore could slide or use a spell second round. Those using Echos could still do a Monster Lore. Same with the blowgun flute.

Take any type of action was party of the bard legendary. Previous bard URs each restricted to a specific thing, e.g., attack. They also add a boost to the values too.

Maybe 1/run would be more in line with a rare power.

Any type of action is at the relic level not the legendary. Getting an extra action once per combat instead of 3-4 times a combat seems reasonable to me. I could also see limiting it to Monster Lore and Attack if really necessary. Right now it just seems much less useful than an extra use of Spell Surge or 40 points of healing.

Compare with Monk or Paladin then.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

edwin wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Endgame wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Most of the class amulets I can see getting a lot of use in Red builds but the Bard one feels very weak. The Lyre of Lore is quite easy to find and is also one of the best instruments for a Red player to use. How about something like: Bardsong bonus gains +1 hit & damage for rest of room (1/game)?

Doesn’t the bard neck item allow:

Round 1) play lyre of echos, do lore check.
Round 2) attack due to lyre of echos
Round3) bardsong with echos
Round 4) attack

All while adding +2 Dex?

I suppose this depends on the preferences of the individual bard. The party would loose out on the extra +2 damage from the Lyre of Lore for the bard to make probably one attack (if most combats don't go past 3 rounds). In many cases I think this would be a net loss on overall party damage. Some bards want to slide and some don't. What I proposed, or something similar, may be more useful for both types of bard.

Thinking about it more, doing something like "May take an action and perform Bardsong at the same time (1/room)" might be more helpful to all different bard types. Those using Lyre of Lore could slide or use a spell second round. Those using Echos could still do a Monster Lore. Same with the blowgun flute.

Take any type of action was party of the bard legendary. Previous bard URs each restricted to a specific thing, e.g., attack. They also add a boost to the values too.

Maybe 1/run would be more in line with a rare power.

Any type of action is at the relic level not the legendary. Getting an extra action once per combat instead of 3-4 times a combat seems reasonable to me. I could also see limiting it to Monster Lore and Attack if really necessary. Right now it just seems much less useful than an extra use of Spell Surge or 40 points of healing.

Compare with Monk or Paladin then.

I think Paladin could use some work. Any ideas?

BrainScan wrote: Thinking about it more, doing something like "May take an action and perform Bardsong at the same time (1/room)" might be more helpful to all different bard types. Those using Lyre of Lore could slide or use a spell second round. Those using Echos could still do a Monster Lore. Same with the blowgun flute.

+1

edwin wrote: Take any type of action was party of the bard legendary. Previous bard URs each restricted to a specific thing, e.g., attack. They also add a boost to the values too.

UR Widseth's vs Lyre of Lore + Necklace of the Songbird with proposed improvement:

• may attack during bardsong in all rounds instead of just one round
• can't cast spells during bardsong
• +1 neck slot!

David Zych wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Thinking about it more, doing something like "May take an action and perform Bardsong at the same time (1/room)" might be more helpful to all different bard types. Those using Lyre of Lore could slide or use a spell second round. Those using Echos could still do a Monster Lore. Same with the blowgun flute.

+1

edwin wrote: Take any type of action was party of the bard legendary. Previous bard URs each restricted to a specific thing, e.g., attack. They also add a boost to the values too.

UR Widseth's vs Lyre of Lore + Necklace of the Songbird with proposed improvement:

• may attack during bardsong in all rounds instead of just one round
• can't cast spells during bardsong
• +1 neck slot!

In a standard run of 3 or 4 combats. It is every round versus just 3 or 4 rounds. Maybe a third of the time instead of all of the time.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

edwin wrote: *snip*

Any type of action is at the relic level not the legendary. Getting an extra action once per combat instead of 3-4 times a combat seems reasonable to me. I could also see limiting it to Monster Lore and Attack if really necessary. Right now it just seems much less useful than an extra use of Spell Surge or 40 points of healing.

Compare with Monk or Paladin then.

I had been thinking those were not amazing but ok.

Looking closer at Monk, I see no reason to ever use it over Vigor. So, fair point.

For Paladin, I know several Paladins that love pushing retribution damage so I saw this one as a trade off between more retribution damage (Amulet of Thorns) and more chances to trigger retribution (extra Guard).

edwin wrote:

David Zych wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Thinking about it more, doing something like "May take an action and perform Bardsong at the same time (1/room)" might be more helpful to all different bard types. Those using Lyre of Lore could slide or use a spell second round. Those using Echos could still do a Monster Lore. Same with the blowgun flute.

+1

edwin wrote: Take any type of action was party of the bard legendary. Previous bard URs each restricted to a specific thing, e.g., attack. They also add a boost to the values too.

UR Widseth's vs Lyre of Lore + Necklace of the Songbird with proposed improvement:

• may attack during bardsong in all rounds instead of just one round
• can't cast spells during bardsong
• +1 neck slot!

In a standard run of 3 or 4 combats. It is every round versus just 3 or 4 rounds. Maybe a third of the time instead of all of the time.

I meant one round per combat, sorry that was unclear.

But my point is that the URs you're comparing it to are instruments which don't occupy the neck slot, which is a huge thing to ignore when suggesting that this would not be "in line with a rare power".