TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote: Anyone making the Fighter Legendary
1). Isn't going to die very often
2) is likely to have a quantity of Mushrooms/Potions to deal with any oopsies
3) may have a Paladin with an available Sacrifice
4) may well have a cleric with the Cleric Relic/Legendary

So the “Fight after Death lite” is pretty marginal. At best.

I still like whirlwind, but it may or may not come into play in any given Dungeon. Very situational. Unless Dungeon design changes.

A significant number of Fighter types were willing to have some reduction of stats on the relic. 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 were two ideas with support based on the abilities on the prior iteration of the Legendary. (More so for the 5/3/2 option). The jump to 7/3/4 creates more incentive to make the legendary.

But I’ll say again, I’m willing to live with situational abilities if it means we keep the stats.

The group I run with is more likely to have a fighter with no paladin and no cleric. You may be dependent on another character getting you back up after the fact and before the end of the current room.

Point 2 covers that.

Let's put the first set of numbers to the new wizard relic legendary. For this exercise, what is the maximum damage a wizard can do in a single round.

First a question? Do all spells gain a spell test? If not, Lightning Storm/Fireball is no longer your max spell, since it's base is 20. With a 15 spell test bonus, your looking at magic missile, which would now have a potential base of 23. That's only a net gain of 3 and is single target. So, let's assume all spells now get a skill test, otherwise I'm suddenly thinking the wizard transmute is a waste of my time.

Based on that assumption, you could raise the base damage of Lightning Storm/Fireball to 35. If you assume another 35 bonus damage and add MEC, you can get 105 pts of damage for the first spell and 70 for the second for a total of 175. That's very substantial. I saw a barbarian hit for 180 hp of damage in V1a, so its not necessarily out of line. At most, a wizard could repeat that 2 more times using Crown of Expertise, the extra FA slot, RoSS, the cabal set and a cleric who restores spell twice. It's a lot of pieces to bring together, but the result I think is the kind of damage wizards wanted in room 7.

I'm just throwing that out there. You can play with the numbers, but they'll be in that vicinity on the high end. If you tinker with any of this, you bring wizards back to the middle of the pack or lower.

Charm slots are very tight, so without this kind of damage, I'm not sure it's worth giving up the Charm necklace. As is, my only fallback at the moment is to give up 2 damage with the Arcane Belt and wear Orion's belt so I can dump Earcuff of Orbits and equip Arcane Earcuff. That gets me back to 6 charms. And unless I dump Charm of Glory, Charm of Brooching or CoAS I can't even look to equip Charm of Power. Although, I guess if I go with Charm of Power I could dump Charm of Spell Swapping. It's a lot of tough decisions, but I will need to give up some damage in the process and that only works if I get more back in return.

Is the wizard legendary being balanced around MEC? If so, where's the MEC reprint?

Dave wrote: Let's put the first set of numbers to the new wizard relic legendary. For this exercise, what is the maximum damage a wizard can do in a single round.

First a question? Do all spells gain a spell test? If not, Lightning Storm/Fireball is no longer your max spell, since it's base is 20. With a 15 spell test bonus, your looking at magic missile, which would now have a potential base of 23. That's only a net gain of 3 and is single target. So, let's assume all spells now get a skill test, otherwise I'm suddenly thinking the wizard transmute is a waste of my time.

Based on that assumption, you could raise the base damage of Lightning Storm/Fireball to 35. If you assume another 35 bonus damage and add MEC, you can get 105 pts of damage for the first spell and 70 for the second for a total of 175. That's very substantial. I saw a barbarian hit for 180 hp of damage in V1a, so its not necessarily out of line. At most, a wizard could repeat that 2 more times using Crown of Expertise, the extra FA slot, RoSS, the cabal set and a cleric who restores spell twice. It's a lot of pieces to bring together, but the result I think is the kind of damage wizards wanted in room 7.

I'm just throwing that out there. You can play with the numbers, but they'll be in that vicinity on the high end. If you tinker with any of this, you bring wizards back to the middle of the pack or lower.

Charm slots are very tight, so without this kind of damage, I'm not sure it's worth giving up the Charm necklace. As is, my only fallback at the moment is to give up 2 damage with the Arcane Belt and wear Orion's belt so I can dump Earcuff of Orbits and equip Arcane Earcuff. That gets me back to 6 charms. And unless I dump Charm of Glory, Charm of Brooching or CoAS I can't even look to equip Charm of Power. Although, I guess if I go with Charm of Power I could dump Charm of Spell Swapping. It's a lot of tough decisions, but I will need to give up some damage in the process and that only works if I get more back in return.

do not assume the relic/legendary is changing the design of existing spells if it's not stated on the token.

Lightning Storm and Fireball would no longer be your best damaging spell in single target situations but still would in multiple target ones.

When we lost the 24(?) base damage single target level 3 spell in favor of AoE spells for both classes our single target burst took a hit

I only made that assumption to point out the maximum damage possible with the new design. Of course, it would need to be ruled, but seems almost humorous that the new design would turn a level 1 spell into your most powerful single target spell. I guess that ups the need to equip Charm of Power.

I'm still generally in favor of this revised relic/legendary, but as I continue to look at it, unless all spells gain a ST, there are no 2nd or 3rd level spells that benefit from this. And unless you equip MEC, you can't reap the maximum benefits. It seems like maybe the enhanced ST damage should be considered bonus damage (not base) and apply to all spells cast. That lowers the overall damage a bit, but would generally equalize the gain across all players and spells.

I kinda wish we had separate threads again....

On the blues...
Shirt - blah, not exciting.
Tankard - I want 10.
Greater Ring - good call.
Bead - interesting.
Gloves - it’s already once per room. non-exalted seems too much.

And the IS:ES - certainly cool, but relic cool?

Dave wrote: I'm still generally in favor of this revised relic/legendary, but as I continue to look at it, unless all spells gain a ST, there are no 2nd or 3rd level spells that benefit from this. And unless you equip MEC, you can't reap the maximum benefits. It seems like maybe the enhanced ST damage should be considered bonus damage (not base) and apply to all spells cast. That lowers the overall damage a bit, but would generally equalize the gain across all players and spells.

And you're right about not making assumptions. The way the relic reads right now it says "Skill Test is +12 instead of +3", so in that case, if the spell doesn't already have a +3, then the +12 would not apply. Things could still be ruled otherwise, but it makes a big difference in the value of this token.

Cleric Relic:

Must the character be dead to be restored to full HP? If so, I need to tell that Paladin to step away from the nearly dead Barbarian and not get all sacrificial or anything. Then I need to tell the rogue to quick stab the Barbarian in the back to finish him off... so I can restore him to life with full HP.

Can the Resurrect be changed to "restore a character to full HP, even if they died this room" or something equivalent?

This change makes the Bards masters of the group heal, while the Cleric is the one to spot heal someone to full. I'll be a little bit envious of the Cleric Amulet mass heal spell, but I'll get over it.

Cleric Legendary
I love divine intervention being back on this token. I like that restore spell and restore power can be cast as FA. I would like one more little thing, I think. Could it have a dex bonus? Now that I have the opportunity to slide a lot more, I would love to use a +3 Hammer, or maybe eventually get a Thor's, but I don't know how I manage to squeeze in a total of +9 dex. I'm probably going to need to dump my plans for the Greater Quicksilver Charm, and there just aren't a ton of other places to turn up dex outside of the kilt.

4* ring
Any chance of making this +3 dex instead of +6 ref? Asking for a friend... yeah, that's it.

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote: Anyone making the Fighter Legendary
1). Isn't going to die very often
2) is likely to have a quantity of Mushrooms/Potions to deal with any oopsies
3) may have a Paladin with an available Sacrifice
4) may well have a cleric with the Cleric Relic/Legendary

So the “Fight after Death lite” is pretty marginal. At best.

I still like whirlwind, but it may or may not come into play in any given Dungeon. Very situational. Unless Dungeon design changes.

A significant number of Fighter types were willing to have some reduction of stats on the relic. 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 were two ideas with support based on the abilities on the prior iteration of the Legendary. (More so for the 5/3/2 option). The jump to 7/3/4 creates more incentive to make the legendary.

But I’ll say again, I’m willing to live with situational abilities if it means we keep the stats.

I would be happy going back to the last iteration with stepped progresson on the stats incouraging us to upgrade to legendary and whirlwind and Crit as part of the legendary path.

The attack after death is a fun mechanic but I feel we had some real momementum with the previous iteration.

The problem is you have to die first. In my 50+ games since I joined in 2018 I have never died once prior to room 7 end. From humble beginnings to epic ++ runs it hasn’t happened. Even when I had to solo with moderate gear.

Is the fighter supposed to be a moderately low Damage but resilient class? Is this the intended design? let me know and I’ll just change classes.

Other classes in this very same thread are receiving free actions guaranteed abilities from their legendaries where the fighter is receiving seldom occurring conditional driving features on this token.

A disappointing regression

I didn't see this coming on the wizard tokens. While damage wise it looks interesting, making the level 1 spells more valuable than the level 2 and level 3 spell feels wrong, especially for (being selfish here) someone who loves sliding spells. I'd have to really think about this one.

Endgame wrote: Now that I have the opportunity to slide a lot more, I would love to use a +3 Hammer, or maybe eventually get a Thor's, but I don't know how I manage to squeeze in a total of +9 dex. I'm probably going to need to dump my plans for the Greater Quicksilver Charm, and there just aren't a ton of other places to turn up dex outside of the kilt

Forget just adding 9 DEX. Go for more. Lots more. The trick is to ignore what a standard Cleric build is, and go all in on a Ranged Cleric