TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

For the Cleric Design, if I understand right the UR Charm and the Relic Neck are designed so they can both be used and grant:

1st level spells as a FA, 2nd level spells as a FA, Restore power and Restore Spell as a FA?

Frankly, as a Wizard, I would love to get Spellbook 0th and 1st level spells as a FA.

Harlax wrote: Anyone making the Fighter Legendary
1). Isn't going to die very often
2) is likely to have a quantity of Mushrooms/Potions to deal with any oopsies
3) may have a Paladin with an available Sacrifice
4) may well have a cleric with the Cleric Relic/Legendary

So the “Fight after Death lite” is pretty marginal. At best.

I still like whirlwind, but it may or may not come into play in any given Dungeon. Very situational. Unless Dungeon design changes.

A significant number of Fighter types were willing to have some reduction of stats on the relic. 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 were two ideas with support based on the abilities on the prior iteration of the Legendary. (More so for the 5/3/2 option). The jump to 7/3/4 creates more incentive to make the legendary.

But I’ll say again, I’m willing to live with situational abilities if it means we keep the stats.

I would be happy going back to the last iteration with stepped progresson on the stats incouraging us to upgrade to legendary and whirlwind and Crit as part of the legendary path.

The attack after death is a fun mechanic but I feel we had some real momementum with the previous iteration.

Harlax wrote: Anyone making the Fighter Legendary
1). Isn't going to die very often
2) is likely to have a quantity of Mushrooms/Potions to deal with any oopsies
3) may have a Paladin with an available Sacrifice
4) may well have a cleric with the Cleric Relic/Legendary

So the “Fight after Death lite” is pretty marginal. At best.

I still like whirlwind, but it may or may not come into play in any given Dungeon. Very situational. Unless Dungeon design changes.

A significant number of Fighter types were willing to have some reduction of stats on the relic. 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 were two ideas with support based on the abilities on the prior iteration of the Legendary. (More so for the 5/3/2 option). The jump to 7/3/4 creates more incentive to make the legendary.

But I’ll say again, I’m willing to live with situational abilities if it means we keep the stats.

Let’s not get to hasty to lock in the revive on the cleric neck. I would much rather use a pot and have the ur incorporated. But I also don’t plan on going past nightmare so I don’t know how often people die in epic

Adam Guay wrote: Where does it say that wizards get to double the spell check damage with Mec?

Really not happy slowing down combat...I may get in 12-15+ more damage but cost the entire party a round of combat.

As a former combat DM, I really think people are overestimating the effect on combat. Costing the party an entire round?

Matthew Hayward wrote: Shoot - I typed out a whole thing and then I think I deleted it on accident - sorry if this is a double post.

The Wizard Relic and Legendary are a huge step back for me from any of the previous iterations.

I question the tactical sagacity of doing a skill test for +12 damage on the Relic on NM+. Some players will give up +2 damage in Amulet of Shock for this, so it's a net +10 damage to do the skill test, and +7 damage over what you would have gotten without it if you did the skill test. Similarly, MMM players may see damage decrease or stay flat, while spending more DM time (at the gain of a Free Action and not having to spend rare wands).

5th level Wizards have 11 Skill Test spells on the card, but they are the weakest spells, so this is a weird push/pull token that boosts your weakest things. It also pulls away from doing zany utility stuff with my spellbook. I don't really need a spellbook if what I should be doing is zapping people with 23 point Magic Missiles (I want to do zany stuff with a spellbook).

I've been fairly upbeat about all prior revisions, but this one really doesn't do much for me.

I come in on the exact opposite of the conversation. I LOVE this change. I've wanted skill checks to matter for a very long time and this makes skill checks a whole lot more useful.

It de-emphesizes sliding spells (which I personally like but many dislike) and it adds a solid boost to the knowledge check of the knowledge based class.


Not sure it really hinders the spellbook all that much. You use one of the 5 slots for a replacement damage spell and have the other 4 for situational stuff. All good.

Your mileage may vary but I'm much happier with this version of the neck than the last two versions. (yes even the lamented lost +8 free spells)

Matthew Hayward wrote: For the Cleric Design, if I understand right the UR Charm and the Relic Neck are designed so they can both be used and grant:

1st level spells as a FA, 2nd level spells as a FA, Restore power and Restore Spell as a FA?

Frankly, as a Wizard, I would love to get Spellbook 0th and 1st level spells as a FA.

Heck if the Relic gave 0 level spells as a FA with the current design I'd do a jig.

Adam Guay wrote: Where does it say that wizards get to double the spell check damage with Mec?

Really not happy slowing down combat...I may get in 12-15+ more damage but cost the entire party a round of combat.

Right on the token :

tokendb.com/token/mad-evokers-charm/

"May double base damage (including skill check)..."

But that raises further questions - this makes MeC even more powerful (or it's going to cause MeC's function to get changed) - and it's really going to put non-MeC wizards in a bind power level wise.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I like the Fighter path - I think the attack after death is interesting, opens up some strange options - is definitely movie esque.

It tramples a bit on RoSP Barbarian Fight After Death - but RoSP Barbarian is frankly a terrifying undead monster so that's OK - she's not threatened by puny 1 round of Fighter attacks.

I'll defer to Fighter Mains if it hits the spot - but for me it's cool.

It’s cool. It reminded me of a line from the movie Yellowbeard. “We Yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we are dead.” But see my analysis above about death and fighters. I don’t think it’s going to wind up being very relevant.

If you want to make it really interesting make any hit an automatic Crit. REVENGE!!!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: Where does it say that wizards get to double the spell check damage with Mec?

Really not happy slowing down combat...I may get in 12-15+ more damage but cost the entire party a round of combat.

Right on the token :

tokendb.com/token/mad-evokers-charm/

"May double base damage (including skill check)..."

But that raises further questions - this makes MeC even more powerful (or it's going to cause MeC's function to get changed) - and it's really going to put non-MeC wizards in a bind power level wise.

Ok I thought there was a post I missed thanks.

Miathan wrote:

Harlax wrote: Anyone making the Fighter Legendary
1). Isn't going to die very often
2) is likely to have a quantity of Mushrooms/Potions to deal with any oopsies
3) may have a Paladin with an available Sacrifice
4) may well have a cleric with the Cleric Relic/Legendary

So the “Fight after Death lite” is pretty marginal. At best.

I still like whirlwind, but it may or may not come into play in any given Dungeon. Very situational. Unless Dungeon design changes.

A significant number of Fighter types were willing to have some reduction of stats on the relic. 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 were two ideas with support based on the abilities on the prior iteration of the Legendary. (More so for the 5/3/2 option). The jump to 7/3/4 creates more incentive to make the legendary.

But I’ll say again, I’m willing to live with situational abilities if it means we keep the stats.

Let’s not get to hasty to lock in the revive on the cleric neck. I would much rather use a pot and have the ur incorporated. But I also don’t plan on going past nightmare so I don’t know how often people die in epic

Which is why it’s point 4. You could take it off the list altogether and not change the bottom line.

Adam Guay wrote: Where does it say that wizards get to double the spell check damage with Mec?

Really not happy slowing down combat...I may get in 12-15+ more damage but cost the entire party a round of combat.

Mad Evoker's Charm

Wizards wearing this charm have the option of doubling the base* damage of a spell cast from their character card (not a scroll or item), but when doing so the wizard suffers 10 points of Eldritch damage. It’s only usable once per round, but other than that it may be used as often as desired.

*Base damage includes the extra damage from passing the planar skill check, but no other bonuses to damage are doubled.

The bolded text shows that the extra damage from the planar skill check is doubled with the MEC. The Relic and Legendary are increasing the bonus damage from the planar skill check. Therefore, the MEC doubles the damage from the Relic and Legendary.

Harlax wrote: Anyone making the Fighter Legendary
1). Isn't going to die very often
2) is likely to have a quantity of Mushrooms/Potions to deal with any oopsies
3) may have a Paladin with an available Sacrifice
4) may well have a cleric with the Cleric Relic/Legendary

So the “Fight after Death lite” is pretty marginal. At best.

I still like whirlwind, but it may or may not come into play in any given Dungeon. Very situational. Unless Dungeon design changes.

A significant number of Fighter types were willing to have some reduction of stats on the relic. 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 were two ideas with support based on the abilities on the prior iteration of the Legendary. (More so for the 5/3/2 option). The jump to 7/3/4 creates more incentive to make the legendary.

But I’ll say again, I’m willing to live with situational abilities if it means we keep the stats.

The group I run with is more likely to have a fighter with no paladin and no cleric. You may be dependent on another character getting you back up after the fact and before the end of the current room.