TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

kurtreznor wrote: Wizard relic and legendary: oh yuk. I would never use these. The wizard relic would be the only class relic I won't get. I know that may just be me, maybe wizards who like the skill check will enjoy this.

Although, now that I look at the UR, it allows rare scrolls and uses the charm slot...so, I guess I will just keep that (instead of downgrading to the relic).

There's been a call for a while to make skill checks matter for Wizards. This boost is big in that respect.

It's also the first revision touching skill checks, it could get additional changes

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: Wizard relic and legendary: oh yuk. I would never use these. The wizard relic would be the only class relic I won't get. I know that may just be me, maybe wizards who like the skill check will enjoy this.

Although, now that I look at the UR, it allows rare scrolls and uses the charm slot...so, I guess I will just keep that (instead of downgrading to the relic).

There's been a call for a while to make skill checks matter for Wizards. This boost is big in that respect.

It's also the first revision touching skill checks, it could get additional changes

Synergy with MEC too if i'm not mistaken.

My first reaction when I saw the wizard relic/legendary - me like!

Don't know if my earlier question was answered - since the MEC is part of the benefits, is the INT requirement still in effect - need an INT of 20?

Will be interesting to see how my build would change if I use these instead of the Charm Necklace. I think I can think of a couple charms I could lose without too much trouble.

Sliding spells would become the spells of last resort!

I don't think I've ever cast a boost spell as a wizard.

Arnold wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: Wizard relic and legendary: oh yuk. I would never use these. The wizard relic would be the only class relic I won't get. I know that may just be me, maybe wizards who like the skill check will enjoy this.

Although, now that I look at the UR, it allows rare scrolls and uses the charm slot...so, I guess I will just keep that (instead of downgrading to the relic).

There's been a call for a while to make skill checks matter for Wizards. This boost is big in that respect.

It's also the first revision touching skill checks, it could get additional changes

Synergy with MEC too if i'm not mistaken.

Shhh.. we don't want to wake the MEC is overpowered crowd ^_^

bpsymington wrote: My first reaction when I saw the wizard relic/legendary - me like!

Don't know if my earlier question was answered - since the MEC is part of the benefits, is the INT requirement still in effect - need an INT of 20?

Will be interesting to see how my build would change if I use these instead of the Charm Necklace. I think I can think of a couple charms I could lose without too much trouble.

Sliding spells would become the spells of last resort!

I don't think I've ever cast a boost spell as a wizard.

You need to check the list again.

The MEC is no longer included in the version C legendary

You will want to also check the UR for the new charm version of the spell book and the charm of power (read it carefully!)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

bpsymington wrote: My first reaction when I saw the wizard relic/legendary - me like!

Don't know if my earlier question was answered - since the MEC is part of the benefits, is the INT requirement still in effect - need an INT of 20?

Will be interesting to see how my build would change if I use these instead of the Charm Necklace. I think I can think of a couple charms I could lose without too much trouble.

Sliding spells would become the spells of last resort!

I don't think I've ever cast a boost spell as a wizard.

You need to check the list again.

The MEC is no longer included in the version C legendary

You will want to also check the UR for the new charm version of the spell book and the charm of power (read it carefully!)

Um, I did check here before there.

Arnold wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: Wizard relic and legendary: oh yuk. I would never use these. The wizard relic would be the only class relic I won't get. I know that may just be me, maybe wizards who like the skill check will enjoy this.

Although, now that I look at the UR, it allows rare scrolls and uses the charm slot...so, I guess I will just keep that (instead of downgrading to the relic).

There's been a call for a while to make skill checks matter for Wizards. This boost is big in that respect.

It's also the first revision touching skill checks, it could get additional changes

Synergy with MEC too if i'm not mistaken.

Example: Put Scroll of Venom Strike in your spell book.

Cast it as a spell and mark off say Magic Missile.

Pass your skill test using the legendary and add 15 to 12 to give 27. MEC it for 54 + your spell damage bonus of around 40 max. Now your first level spell thumps for 90+ damage.

Now if you don't have an MEC you get the spell to thump for 65+ damage. Not too shappy for a standard action and use of a 1st level spell.

This assumes skill test will be applied to scrolls cast as first level spells. If not then just dock 4 points and cast magic missile instead and the numbers work out roughly the same.

Big question on skill test is if they only apply to spells already listed as having skill tests on the character card?

Anyone making the Fighter Legendary
1). Isn't going to die very often
2) is likely to have a quantity of Mushrooms/Potions to deal with any oopsies
3) may have a Paladin with an available Sacrifice
4) may well have a cleric with the Cleric Relic/Legendary

So the “Fight after Death lite” is pretty marginal. At best.

I still like whirlwind, but it may or may not come into play in any given Dungeon. Very situational. Unless Dungeon design changes.

A significant number of Fighter types were willing to have some reduction of stats on the relic. 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 were two ideas with support based on the abilities on the prior iteration of the Legendary. (More so for the 5/3/2 option). The jump to 7/3/4 creates more incentive to make the legendary.

But I’ll say again, I’m willing to live with situational abilities if it means we keep the stats.

Edit: Now that I've had some time to think about it, and under the assumption that MeC doubles the spell bonus, I've come around somewhat on this token (TDTTOE = The Design Team Thinks of Everything ).

It is not exactly my play-style, but with healing support this token does push Wizards way up in power level, and gives them a fun little puzzle to solve while doing it.

I'm going to leave my initial reaction here below.

For the record, I liked 2 spells at each level as a FA + Familiar much better than this.

Original post

Shoot - I typed out a whole thing and then I think I deleted it on accident - sorry if this is a double post.

The Wizard Relic and Legendary are a huge step back for me from any of the previous iterations.

I question the tactical sagacity of doing a skill test for +12 damage on the Relic on NM+. Some players will give up +2 damage in Amulet of Shock for this, so it's a net +10 damage to do the skill test, and +7 damage over what you would have gotten without it if you did the skill test. Similarly, MMM players may see damage decrease or stay flat, while spending more DM time (at the gain of a Free Action and not having to spend rare wands).

5th level Wizards have 11 Skill Test spells on the card, but they are the weakest spells, so this is a weird push/pull token that boosts your weakest things. It also pulls away from doing zany utility stuff with my spellbook. I don't really need a spellbook if what I should be doing is zapping people with 23 point Magic Missiles (I want to do zany stuff with a spellbook).

I've been fairly upbeat about all prior revisions, but this one really doesn't do much for me.

Also, it's a bit hard to look at the Fighter one in Comparison:

Fighters get the effects of probably their two best neck slot URs (Stu's and Valhalla), an additional +1 STR, and a wacky reflex bonus.

By comparison Wizards get an effect that lives in the Charm slot, and an additional +9 damage on their 11 worst spells if they do a thing that slows down combat.

For a humorous insight into how I'm feeling about this:



I feel as though the value of the legendary has been scaling inversely with the famous line about Sales rewards delivered by Alec Baldwin in Glengarry Glen Ross: First iteration - Cadillac Eldorado, 2nd iteration - A set of steak knives, 3rd iteration - I'm fired from my job....

I know the designers are doing their best, and us Wizards are a confusing bunch.

I like the Fighter path - I think the attack after death is interesting, opens up some strange options - is definitely movie esque.

It tramples a bit on RoSP Barbarian Fight After Death - but RoSP Barbarian is frankly a terrifying undead monster so that's OK - she's not threatened by puny 1 round of Fighter attacks.

I'll defer to Fighter Mains if it hits the spot - but for me it's cool.

I don't think this would slow combat, other than groups that pass on all skill tests. If they incorporate the new VTD wizard test into ATD (analog TD?), it's easy for the DM to flip to a symbol or show a card and ask, "Okay, what's this," instead of having the wizard cross the room to a planar test board to point to a plane.

Where does it say that wizards get to double the spell check damage with Mec?

Really not happy slowing down combat...I may get in 12-15+ more damage but cost the entire party a round of combat.