TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

I was wondering because maybe since I haven’t been playing that long and fighter is my buddies class maybe I missed something. I personally am not a fan of stats being the main push on the token but I understand why it’s wanted and I get str and con. But what is the push for dex?

isauteikisa wrote: Is the wizard legendary being balanced around MEC? If so, where's the MEC reprint?

Next year...with Stu's probably.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: cleric relic
Sorry, not that excited.
One rez per game is okay, but our groups seldom die. When we do, it’s always some failed-save irrevocable death: disintegrated, swallowed whole, fell into the void. Unless it’s an irrevocable rez that trumps irrevocable death, I guess it’s just okay.

The 2nd level FA spells are okay, but I’d rather it included 1st as well. Or, maybe ignore level and just make all non-heal spells FA. I’d take “cast one spell per room as FA.” Otherwise I’m giving up Charm Necklace plus a fourth charm, so I guess Mjolnir goes into mothballs for good. Add +3 DEX and I’d be happier.

Re: cleric legendary
No comment

Re: Druid items
I get they seem relatively underpowered. But I consider Druids to be one of the top three OP classes (they certainly trounce clerics in every category except turning undead) so I’m okay with their items lagging behind the rest.

I’m probably the only one who feels that way about it.

Boy, I shouldn't go down this rabbit hole, but you really think Druids are more powerful than two of the group of Wizard, Elf Wizard, Ranger, and Monk? I think they are further down the list than that, but there seems to be a general consensus that those are the top 4 classes (and that's before the Wizard Legendary).

My damage ranking is Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, Rogue, Fighters, Paladin, Druid, Bard, Wizards, Cleric. My utility to the party ranking (not raw damage dealt by themselves) is Bard, Druid, Rogue, Cleric, Paladin, Dwarf Fighter, Wizards, Ranger, Monk/Fighter/Barbarian. Overall, I rate Rogue as the best class, then Monk, then Ranger, then Druid, then Bard, then Cleric, then Paladin, then Barbarian/Fighters, then Wizard. I just don’t enjoy shuffleboard and like memory tests, so Wizard is most fun for me, despite feeling like the least important member of the team.

Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

What if Fighters had Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery where Whirlwind works for both Fighter and Dwarf Fighter but Weapon Mastery has different abilities for each class?

Whirlwind
If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically. (Same as Jeff wrote it.)

Weapon Mastery
Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 1 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)
Dwarf Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 2 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)

Why do you assume that humans should prefer 1 handed weapons and Dwarves should prefer two handed?

I can tell you its not true for me.

Also, keep it simple. We are men of action. Let the Wizards have their endless debates about this or that. Get in there and mix it up.

Thats why I think all fighters can have Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery can be a choice you make in coaching to best suit your build. Everyone wins.

As long as your definition of everyone does not include Dwarf Fighters with one handed weapons. Or Humans who prefer Two Handed. Dictating weapon use is not choice..

What I meant was in coaching you pick the bonus you want from the list as it doesn't matter which Fighter you are.

OK. The way you wrote it didn't convey that to me. If its a choice of which weapon style gets the expand crit and its not limited by human or dwarf, thats cool.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Nobody's dictating anything. It was a suggestion for a bonus tied to the keyword. And here I thought we were just spitballing over a pint and going to leave the debating to the Wizards!

If we're done spitballing, I think the Fighters are in agreement on everything we like and don't like about these two tokens...

AoNM - A worthy step-up from our previous neck slot UR. <<<We will be making this token.

VAoNM - Whirlwind is a solid special power and works with the class. Jeff says melee only and I agree with him on that. The text that comes after the "&" is worthless because at this level, we're not dying for a number of reasons. <<<We will not be making this token unless that copy after the "&" is changed.

That said, I am now fully embracing that these Legendaries should further differentiate the classes and to that end, there should not be any specific bonus for two-handed weapons on the Fighter Relic or Legendary. That's what the Barbarian Legendary is for. (To be clear, even wihtout a specific bonus, we are the masters of all weapons so you can still use two-handed if you choose.)

I really feel the expanded Crit range (18-20) would make VAoNM worthy of making. But heck, I'd even say a second use of Weapon Specialization and Taunt would be better than the one attack after death power.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: cleric relic
Sorry, not that excited.
One rez per game is okay, but our groups seldom die. When we do, it’s always some failed-save irrevocable death: disintegrated, swallowed whole, fell into the void. Unless it’s an irrevocable rez that trumps irrevocable death, I guess it’s just okay.

The 2nd level FA spells are okay, but I’d rather it included 1st as well. Or, maybe ignore level and just make all non-heal spells FA. I’d take “cast one spell per room as FA.” Otherwise I’m giving up Charm Necklace plus a fourth charm, so I guess Mjolnir goes into mothballs for good. Add +3 DEX and I’d be happier.

Re: cleric legendary
No comment

Re: Druid items
I get they seem relatively underpowered. But I consider Druids to be one of the top three OP classes (they certainly trounce clerics in every category except turning undead) so I’m okay with their items lagging behind the rest.

I’m probably the only one who feels that way about it.

Boy, I shouldn't go down this rabbit hole, but you really think Druids are more powerful than two of the group of Wizard, Elf Wizard, Ranger, and Monk? I think they are further down the list than that, but there seems to be a general consensus that those are the top 4 classes (and that's before the Wizard Legendary).

My damage ranking is Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, Rogue, Fighters, Paladin, Druid, Bard, Wizards, Cleric. My utility to the party ranking (not raw damage dealt by themselves) is Bard, Druid, Rogue, Cleric, Paladin, Dwarf Fighter, Wizards, Ranger, Monk/Fighter/Barbarian. Overall, I rate Rogue as the best class, then Monk, then Ranger, then Druid, then Bard, then Cleric, then Paladin, then Barbarian/Fighters, then Wizard. I just don’t enjoy shuffleboard and like memory tests, so Wizard is most fun for me, despite feeling like the least important member of the team.

How did you develop those damage rankings? All the analysis I've seen recently has Monk, Ranger, and Wizards at the top in varying order.

Miathan wrote: I was wondering because maybe since I haven’t been playing that long and fighter is my buddies class maybe I missed something. I personally am not a fan of stats being the main push on the token but I understand why it’s wanted and I get str and con. But what is the push for dex?

Dex is important for AC, REFLEX saves, ranged HIT, and for being able to equip some items that have a steep dexterity requirement.

There is no legitimate analysis of existing damages that places Wizard in top 3 damage as of 2020. If you are seeing that it's a heavily skewed data set.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

What if Fighters had Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery where Whirlwind works for both Fighter and Dwarf Fighter but Weapon Mastery has different abilities for each class?

Whirlwind
If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically. (Same as Jeff wrote it.)

Weapon Mastery
Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 1 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)
Dwarf Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 2 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)

Why do you assume that humans should prefer 1 handed weapons and Dwarves should prefer two handed?

I can tell you its not true for me.

Also, keep it simple. We are men of action. Let the Wizards have their endless debates about this or that. Get in there and mix it up.

Thats why I think all fighters can have Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery can be a choice you make in coaching to best suit your build. Everyone wins.

As long as your definition of everyone does not include Dwarf Fighters with one handed weapons. Or Humans who prefer Two Handed. Dictating weapon use is not choice..

What I meant was in coaching you pick the bonus you want from the list as it doesn't matter which Fighter you are.

OK. The way you wrote it didn't convey that to me. If its a choice of which weapon style gets the expand crit and its not limited by human or dwarf, thats cool.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Nobody's dictating anything. It was a suggestion for a bonus tied to the keyword. And here I thought we were just spitballing over a pint and going to leave the debating to the Wizards!

If we're done spitballing, I think the Fighters are in agreement on everything we like and don't like about these two tokens...

AoNM - A worthy step-up from our previous neck slot UR. <<<We will be making this token.

VAoNM - Whirlwind is a solid special power and works with the class. Jeff says melee only and I agree with him on that. The text that comes after the "&" is worthless because at this level, we're not dying for a number of reasons. <<<We will not be making this token unless that copy after the "&" is changed.

That said, I am now fully embracing that these Legendaries should further differentiate the classes and to that end, there should not be any specific bonus for two-handed weapons on the Fighter Relic or Legendary. That's what the Barbarian Legendary is for. (To be clear, even wihtout a specific bonus, we are the masters of all weapons so you can still use two-handed if you choose.)

I really feel the expanded Crit range (18-20) would make VAoNM worthy of making. But heck, I'd even say a second use of Weapon Specialization and Taunt would be better than the one attack after death power.

I think we are violently in agreement on adding back expanded crit.

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Miathan wrote: I was wondering because maybe since I haven’t been playing that long and fighter is my buddies class maybe I missed something. I personally am not a fan of stats being the main push on the token but I understand why it’s wanted and I get str and con. But what is the push for dex?

Dex is important for AC, REFLEX saves, ranged HIT, and for being able to equip some items that have a steep dexterity requirement.

Repeatedly people have said that ac dosent matter and reflex saves is on the current token so it’s not needed for that. As for requirements for items I don’t feel it’s real thematic to make a token so fighters can use Thor’s or los. Seems like it should be left to a ranged class

Matthew Hayward wrote:

James wrote: I just don't think any of the cleric abilities really add to the fun of the class for me which I think is the biggest disappointment, the most fun I had with a cleric was playing a Templar in a turkey leg run and I didn't even use any spells on that run. I was doing 50 points of damage on crits with a turkey leg.

Now you can attack in melee every round still buff with prayer and healing.

It would seem this is exactly what you want - but you say it doesn’t help your play style?

Seems like he might consider a different class if bashing as a templar is his thing.

Perhaps paladin, or maybe barbarian.

Mike Steele wrote: One thing to consider is that we're comparing Wizards to Monks and Rangers with full damage bonuses on both of their attacks. I'm sure there is going to be a strong push when character cards are redesigned to change it so that they only get the full damage bonus for their first hit (or something along those lines).

I dont know about you, but I'm sure of very little.

Particularly in 2020

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

James wrote: I just don't think any of the cleric abilities really add to the fun of the class for me which I think is the biggest disappointment, the most fun I had with a cleric was playing a Templar in a turkey leg run and I didn't even use any spells on that run. I was doing 50 points of damage on crits with a turkey leg.

Now you can attack in melee every round still buff with prayer and healing.

It would seem this is exactly what you want - but you say it doesn’t help your play style?

Seems like he might consider a different class if bashing as a templar is his thing.

Perhaps paladin, or maybe barbarian.

Maybe Elf Wizard so he can cast Bull's Strength on himself?