TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

New number calculations:

EDIT: WHOA! Forgot Arcane Set and Crown of Expertise.

Key stipulations: Build is still tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/bc73306e-ece3-4f4a-933f-8312fc953284
Having 26 damage to spells, a cleric and/or druid in the party to heal, MEC, Charm of Spell Swapping. Additionally, assuming charm of power can be used for the free action spell.

This uses 12 pt damage scrolls placed in spell book. Key note: these are not consumed!

1st round:
FA scroll (arcane set) +MEC scroll:
(12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) = 53 + 80 = 133

2nd round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (Charm of Power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

3rd round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (spell swap lvl 2 FA spell):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

- New room -

4th round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (charm of power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

5th round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (spell swap lvl 3 FA spell):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

6th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap cat's grace/bull's strength) + FA scroll (Charm of Spell Storing):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

- new room -

7th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell) + FA scroll (charm of power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

8th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell or invisibility or ironskin) + FA scroll (Crown of Expertise):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

9th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell or invisibility or ironskin) + FA scroll (1 level FA):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

*you are now out of FA spells (aside from the 0 level spell), unless the cleric can restore the FA spell slots (they can, right)?

Since scroll spells deal 27 base, it's always worth using over fireball/lightning storm and every other spell unless AOE is called for.

After 9 rounds of combat, the card should look like the attachment:


Key point: 133 pts of damage every round by the wizard that automatically hits.

Thanks to Phil for running the numbers.

Mike Steele wrote: It has nothing with how my group plays. We're probably outfitted heavily enough for Nightmare, but my group is very casual (other than me, nobody else in the group has any contact with True Dungeon other than playing) and prefers Hardcore. To be honest, they are still scarred from the Smoak years - those Nightmare dungeons were so unpleasant that a lot of our group quit and many others were on the verge. I don't have much of a personal stake in the vast majority of these top end tokens, my group will rarely use them. I think other than CoA we only have two Legendary tokens in the group.

I definitely understand Smoak dissuading people from Nightmare. If you're not comfortable with talking your regular group into trying Nightmare again, I'd suggest trying Nightmare out for yourself with one of the regular forum groups to see how you think your regular group would do.

Mike Steele wrote: I'm concerned with Power Creep (it's more like Power Leap now) because I think the larger the gap between beginning players and BIS players the more problematic it becomes. You need more and more difficulty levels, the gap between difficulty levels becomes greater so players have to jump between being overpowered for one level and underpowered for the next. It also becomes intimidating to newer players to see the vast gap in power between themselves and veterans, especially since some of the more overpowered tokens (Gloves of Flying Fist, +2 Staff of Power, MEC, etc) seem to rarely if ever be reprinted, so they are out of a new player's reach. It seems crazy to me that we're at the point where a single player can do 100+ points of damage per turn, and it only keeps going up, at a pretty rapid rate.

I get the concern on gaps in power level, which is why I've pushed back on raising the difficulty on Hardcore or Nightmare in the past (and will try to keep doing that). If we could consistently get Epic difficulty at all events, that would help alleviate that problem slightly (as fewer overgeared players would be playing Nightmare and saying it is too easy). Having Epic may not be a perfect solution (it almost certainly isn't), but it helps. But we can't officially get Epic all the time (thank you to the DMs that play along with us anyways and have us kill the monster 7 times before actually saying it is dead!). But just because something may be too powerful at Hardcore or even Nightmare doesn't mean it is too powerful overall. Context is needed.

I also get the concern on reprints not happening on powerful older tokens. Several times I've supported reprints right after I've bought an old copy for more than I should (just because I was frustrated with how difficult it was for myself). I'm not sure how Jeff decides which get reprinted and which don't. I know he has a tough balance to pull between coming up with new things for the long timers that want something different and bringing a nice balance of old classics back in the mix to help ensure access is available. And the more new tokens there are, likely the longer some reprints will take to be seen.

As far as new players being intimidated by the difference in gearing, I'm sure there are cases where that is true. I'm sure there are also cases where that gap actually drew people more quickly into token collecting. I've directly seen both. As long as we've got a mix across that spectrum, it is probably ok (I doubt there's any perfect mix, but all one direction or the other probably isn't it). But I doubt any of us (other than maybe possibly the coaches and DMs) have more than a few anecdotes to point to in either direction.

Mike Steele wrote: Also, as I think Matthew has also pointed out, it can be discouraging to players and token buyers to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars (or even tens of thousands of dollars) on BIS tokens only to see them become obsolete in a relatively short time (sometimes the very next year). That may get them to stop buying as many tokens. That actually did happen to me to an extent, that's another reason we primarily play Hardcore.

Sure, I definitely get this concern too. Which tokens are we obsoleting by these Relics/Legendaries currently? Not the consumable resurrection. You've admitted you already have almost no use for those, and I've stated that I expect I'll still need those on Epic at times even with a built-in resurrection on the Cleric transmutes.

Mike Steele wrote: To be honest, given how powerful these are becoming I wish that the Class Legendaries had never happened at all, but that ship has sailed.

I wouldn’t waste a wish on it, but that’s what I’ve been saying for three years.

Matt Goodman wrote: New number calculations:

EDIT: WHOA! Forgot Arcane Set and Crown of Expertise.

Key stipulations: Build is still tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/bc73306e-ece3-4f4a-933f-8312fc953284
Having 26 damage to spells, a cleric and/or druid in the party to heal, MEC, Charm of Spell Swapping. Additionally, assuming charm of power can be used for the free action spell.

This uses 12 pt damage scrolls placed in spell book. Key note: these are not consumed!

1st round:
FA scroll (arcane set) +MEC scroll:
(12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) = 53 + 80 = 133

2nd round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (Charm of Power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

3rd round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (spell swap lvl 2 FA spell):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

- New room -

4th round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (charm of power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

5th round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (spell swap lvl 3 FA spell):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

6th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap cat's grace/bull's strength) + FA scroll (Charm of Spell Storing):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

- new room -

7th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell) + FA scroll (charm of power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

8th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell or invisibility or ironskin) + FA scroll (Crown of Expertise):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

9th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell or invisibility or ironskin) + FA scroll (1 level FA):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

*you are now out of FA spells (aside from the 0 level spell), unless the cleric can restore the FA spell slots (they can, right)?

Since scroll spells deal 27 base, it's always worth using over fireball/lightning storm and every other spell unless AOE is called for.

After 9 rounds of combat, the card should look like the attachment:


Key point: 133 pts of damage every round by the wizard that automatically hits.

Thanks to Phil for running the numbers.

I think I'm running with the wrong group - my Elf Wiz has never been able to count on 30+ pts of healing per combat...

Aeroneus Martellus wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: New number calculations:

EDIT: WHOA! Forgot Arcane Set and Crown of Expertise.

Key stipulations: Build is still tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/bc73306e-ece3-4f4a-933f-8312fc953284
Having 26 damage to spells, a cleric and/or druid in the party to heal, MEC, Charm of Spell Swapping. Additionally, assuming charm of power can be used for the free action spell.

This uses 12 pt damage scrolls placed in spell book. Key note: these are not consumed!

1st round:
FA scroll (arcane set) +MEC scroll:
(12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) = 53 + 80 = 133

2nd round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (Charm of Power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

3rd round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (spell swap lvl 2 FA spell):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

- New room -

4th round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (charm of power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

5th round:
MEC scroll + FA scroll (spell swap lvl 3 FA spell):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

6th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap cat's grace/bull's strength) + FA scroll (Charm of Spell Storing):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

- new room -

7th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell) + FA scroll (charm of power):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

8th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell or invisibility or ironskin) + FA scroll (Crown of Expertise):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

9th round:
MEC scroll (spell swap a lvl 2 ray spell or invisibility or ironskin) + FA scroll (1 level FA):
(12 + 15 + 12 + 15 + 26) + (12 + 15 + 26) = 80 + 53 = 133

*you are now out of FA spells (aside from the 0 level spell), unless the cleric can restore the FA spell slots (they can, right)?

Since scroll spells deal 27 base, it's always worth using over fireball/lightning storm and every other spell unless AOE is called for.

After 9 rounds of combat, the card should look like the attachment:


Key point: 133 pts of damage every round by the wizard that automatically hits.

Thanks to Phil for running the numbers.

I think I'm running with the wrong group - my Elf Wiz has never been able to count on 30+ pts of healing per combat...

Your wizard needs to be good friends with the paladin, cleric, and druid so they dont need to keep bugging the same person.

James wrote: I just don't think any of the cleric abilities really add to the fun of the class for me which I think is the biggest disappointment, the most fun I had with a cleric was playing a Templar in a turkey leg run and I didn't even use any spells on that run. I was doing 50 points of damage on crits with a turkey leg.

Now you can attack in melee every round still buff with prayer and healing.

It would seem this is exactly what you want - but you say it doesn’t help your play style?

Brad Mortensen wrote: I’m probably the only one who feels that way about it.

edwin wrote:

Guedoji wrote: I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!...

What version are the legendary are you referring too?

The current version is very desirable and puts wizards on top of the damage pile with or without a MEC.

I would be interested to see an analysis of how similarly geared Wizards with a Relic/Legendary item out damage a Monk without MeC (or with MeC - but let's start with the more extreme claim).

Dave wrote: No time to reread all of the posts/analysis. I'm just going add my current numbers. The wizard transmutes do a pretty insane amount of damage.

Assumptions
I used Elf Wizard (which I normally play, for my analysis)
Only spells that currently have a skill test listed will get the enhanced skill test. That is Magic Missile, Acid Splash and Shocking Grasp. It may have been alluded to previously, but I haven't seen it stated in the latest iteration that the new scroll/spells would also gain a skill test.
I assumed 3 combat rooms and a total of 8 rounds (very typical for a nightmare group). These numbers really do not apply to normal or hardcore runs. If you have all of these tokens, you shouldn't be running at those levels. If combat goes beyond the 8 rounds, the wizard ability diminishes quickly.
I'm assuming in 2021 that I can use my 2nd and 3rd level spell free actions from the new legendary and swap out the 3rd and 2nd level spells for more Magic Missiles

Build (items that contribute to spell damage, unless listed the bonus is the same for both years)
IS Banshee Prism - +2
Eldritch set - +3 in 2020/+4 in 2021
Bracelets of Cabal - +1
Arcane Belt - +2
Boots of 4 Winds - +5
Drake's Staff - +5
Relsa's Ring - +5
Shirt of Focus - +2
Earcuff of Inspiration - +4 (assume legendary level bard)
Lenses of Focus - +1
Gregor's Tome - +2

Total bonus damage - 32 in 2020/33 in 2021 (due to added eldritch item)

2020
Room 1 Round 1 - Fireball using MEC plus Magic Missile using Cabal = 115 damage
Room 1 Round 2 - Magic Missile using MEC = 54
Room 2 Round 3 - Fireball from COE using MEC plus Magic Missile using Cabal = 115
Room 2 Round 4 - Magic Missile using MEC = 54
Room 2 Round 5 - Acid Ray using MEC less 10% miss chance = 52
Room 3 Round 6 - Fireball from RoSS using MEC plus Magic Missile = 115
Room 3 Round 7 - Ray of Shock using MEC less 10% miss plus Acid Splash using Cabal = 99
Room 3 Round 8 - Ray of Shock using MEC less 10% = 61
Total Damage = 665 points
Extra Ray of Shock and Magic Missiles acquired through Charm of Spell Swapping

2021
Room 1 Round 1 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using cabal = 135
Room 1 Round 2 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Acid Splash using Medallion Free Action = 130
Room 2 Round 3 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using cabal = 135
Room 2 Round 4 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Acid Splash using Medallion Free Action = 130
Room 2 Round 5 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using RoSS = 135
Room 3 Round 6 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using cabal = 135
Room 3 Round 7 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using Medallion Free Action = 135
Room 3 Round 8 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using Medallion Free Action = 135
Total Damage = 1070 points
Extra Magic Missiles acquired through Charm of Spell Swapping, Ring of Spell Storing, Charm of Power and Crown of Expertise

Basically the skill test bonus pushes me to use magic missile as often as possible to the exclusion of all other spells. Unless the scrolls gain a skill test, they are worthless unless needed situationally. Similarly, you may want to use a fireball or two in rooms with more than 1 monster.

So the net gain over 8 rounds is 405 points of damage. Most of this is a result of the FA spells. A good chunk does come from enhanced MEC.

What do you lose?
In 2020 I had 64 hp, in 2021 I have 52. This assumes I add the new transmute IS.
I am unable to equip CoAS, so the entire party loses 1 hp and the party loses 1 to initiative rolls.
My saving throws go from 19/22/18 to 14/17/13. So there is a greater chance that monster effects will either damage me or stop me from casting my spells altogether.
Token losses that sting - Charm Necklace, Charm of Awakened Synergy, Charm of Brooching, IS Charming Cabochon, IS Topaz Trilliant, Cloak of Shadowskin (Or Greater Destiny), Semi-Lich Skull

I could look at dumping the Cabal set, but would lose 168 pts of overall damage. I could get some stuff back by losing the Arcane Belt, that would cost 32 points of damage, but I get 1 Charm and 2 IS back.

Anyway, every round past round 8 would be an Acid Splash or Shocking Grasp using MEC for 69 pts of damage. You would still have a handful of spells left. Not enough for grind, but plenty for the dungeon.

I'd love to cast more damage, but this is kind of excessive. Also, it's kind of boring to just keep swapping things out so I can do two magic missiles every round.

Interesting read!

One thing I have been thinking about this token as I warm to it, is you don't HAVE to go so crazy for damage - it's a choice - and damage output will be respectable if you don't go all in.

For me, I think I'll drop Cabal, save my 2 spells per round for boss fight, and keep the defenses.

Choices are good - this token lets top end wizards really get focused on damage - but if you don't want to be a magic missile ballista you can go another direction and still be very capable for 4 rounds with the Legendary.

edwin wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: ...

Key take away: A wizard can do 144 pts of damage every round 100% of the time where 100% of that damage gets through.

This is significant because the "big hitters" never have 100% success rate. And I can't see them getting that high of damage unless they crit (which in physical TD is more difficult). A monk build using Benrow's has a +34 to damage. So if both pucks hit, 64 + weapon damage = 75 ish... About half of what the wizard could do.

...

You probably need to bump that damage down a bit because MEC can only be used once per round.

Thanks, I knew my thinking and math was slightly off. I think the idea is still valid though. So 120 pts every round, 100% of the time.

And I guess multiply by two if you have two wizards in the group.

What are the timing restrictions on Charm of Spell Swapping? Free action or instantaneous...can it be done multiple times a round?

No restrictions.

Yes restrictions.

You may only swap into a healing or damage spell.

The swap isn't an action - casting the spell is your action - the swap changes what gets marked off.

It remains unclear if you will be able to swap into/out of the Free Action spells on the card. It could be ruled either way.

Since the question was timing restrictions I provided a short answer. To clarify there are no timing restrictions.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote:

Guedoji wrote: I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!...

What version are the legendary are you referring too?

The current version is very desirable and puts wizards on top of the damage pile with or without a MEC.

I would be interested to see an analysis of how similarly geared Wizards with a Relic/Legendary item out damage a Monk without MeC (or with MeC - but let's start with the more extreme claim).

One thing to consider is that we're comparing Wizards to Monks and Rangers with full damage bonuses on both of their attacks. I'm sure there is going to be a strong push when character cards are redesigned to change it so that they only get the full damage bonus for their first hit (or something along those lines).