TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.

Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.

This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.

Edwin, I agree, it really doesn't give any advantages than melee polymorph, and doesn't really increase the amount of polymorph damage by very much. It needs a major overhaul.

Saying the Druid Legendary is too weak seems like a great thing to have talked about at the time of Druid legendary design and NOT a justification for making sure the Wizard legendary is weaker so the Druids aren’t alone in a sinking ship. Wizards are already the least loved, let’s not hamper them more so that Druid can “share the suffering”. Otherwise, please start campaigning to make every class legendary weaker please, especially Rogue and Monk.

Yeah, I am really confused by Mike trying to nerf the wizard legendary. Jeff has already commented about revisiting some of the class legendaries to tweak/rebalance after these are allbdone. If anything, Mike should be happy that the wizard legendary is so powerful, because that will make an easier case to improve the druid legendary.

I'm not just advocating for the good of the Druid, I'm advocating for the good of the game. I don't think it's good for the game for some of these Class Legendary tokens to be so overpowered. I'm concerned in general of the long-term effects of power creep, and some of these Class Legendaries (I'm looking at you, Wizard Legendary) are kicking that into overdrive. I'd much rather all of the Class Legendaries be at a lower power level than all of them (including Druid) raised to an overpowered power level. To be honest, given how powerful these are becoming I wish that the Class Legendaries had never happened at all, but that ship has sailed.

Mike, what are you basing this fear of power level on? You've said you play Hardcore. Yes, these are absolutely overpowered for Hardcore. Someone wearing any one of the Legendaries and nothing else above a Rare could likely solo Hardcore (barring dying due to puzzles). I think it is likely you won't get any argument on that. They may even be overpowered for Nightmare when a whole group with tokens like these come through. But have you seen how tokens, monsters, and player actions interact with each other at that level? And how about Epic? Because what might seem overpowered at Hardcore or even Nightmare might not scale in the way you think it might on Epic. You can't just look at numbers by themselves.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

What if Fighters had Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery where Whirlwind works for both Fighter and Dwarf Fighter but Weapon Mastery has different abilities for each class?

Whirlwind
If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically. (Same as Jeff wrote it.)

Weapon Mastery
Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 1 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)
Dwarf Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 2 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)

Why do you assume that humans should prefer 1 handed weapons and Dwarves should prefer two handed?

I can tell you its not true for me.

Also, keep it simple. We are men of action. Let the Wizards have their endless debates about this or that. Get in there and mix it up.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.

Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.

This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.

Edwin, I agree, it really doesn't give any advantages than melee polymorph, and doesn't really increase the amount of polymorph damage by very much. It needs a major overhaul.

Saying the Druid Legendary is too weak seems like a great thing to have talked about at the time of Druid legendary design and NOT a justification for making sure the Wizard legendary is weaker so the Druids aren’t alone in a sinking ship. Wizards are already the least loved, let’s not hamper them more so that Druid can “share the suffering”. Otherwise, please start campaigning to make every class legendary weaker please, especially Rogue and Monk.

Yeah, I am really confused by Mike trying to nerf the wizard legendary. Jeff has already commented about revisiting some of the class legendaries to tweak/rebalance after these are allbdone. If anything, Mike should be happy that the wizard legendary is so powerful, because that will make an easier case to improve the druid legendary.

I'm not just advocating for the good of the Druid, I'm advocating for the good of the game. I don't think it's good for the game for some of these Class Legendary tokens to be so overpowered. I'm concerned in general of the long-term effects of power creep, and some of these Class Legendaries (I'm looking at you, Wizard Legendary) are kicking that into overdrive. I'd much rather all of the Class Legendaries be at a lower power level than all of them (including Druid) raised to an overpowered power level. To be honest, given how powerful these are becoming I wish that the Class Legendaries had never happened at all, but that ship has sailed.

Mike, what are you basing this fear of power level on? You've said you play Hardcore. Yes, these are absolutely overpowered for Hardcore. Someone wearing any one of the Legendaries and nothing else above a Rare could likely solo Hardcore (barring dying due to puzzles). I think it is likely you won't get any argument on that. They may even be overpowered for Nightmare when a whole group with tokens like these come through. But have you seen how tokens, monsters, and player actions interact with each other at that level? And how about Epic? Because what might seem overpowered at Hardcore or even Nightmare might not scale in the way you think it might on Epic. You can't just look at numbers by themselves.

It has nothing with how my group plays. We're probably outfitted heavily enough for Nightmare, but my group is very casual (other than me, nobody else in the group has any contact with True Dungeon other than playing) and prefers Hardcore. To be honest, they are still scarred from the Smoak years - those Nightmare dungeons were so unpleasant that a lot of our group quit and many others were on the verge. I don't have much of a personal stake in the vast majority of these top end tokens, my group will rarely use them. I think other than CoA we only have two Legendary tokens in the group.

I'm concerned with Power Creep (it's more like Power Leap now) because I think the larger the gap between beginning players and BIS players the more problematic it becomes. You need more and more difficulty levels, the gap between difficulty levels becomes greater so players have to jump between being overpowered for one level and underpowered for the next. It also becomes intimidating to newer players to see the vast gap in power between themselves and veterans, especially since some of the more overpowered tokens (Gloves of Flying Fist, +2 Staff of Power, MEC, etc) seem to rarely if ever be reprinted, so they are out of a new player's reach. It seems crazy to me that we're at the point where a single player can do 100+ points of damage per turn, and it only keeps going up, at a pretty rapid rate.

Also, as I think Matthew has also pointed out, it can be discouraging to players and token buyers to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars (or even tens of thousands of dollars) on BIS tokens only to see them become obsolete in a relatively short time (sometimes the very next year). That may get them to stop buying as many tokens. That actually did happen to me to an extent, that's another reason we primarily play Hardcore.

Oh, and you kids, get off my lawn!!

Harlax wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

What if Fighters had Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery where Whirlwind works for both Fighter and Dwarf Fighter but Weapon Mastery has different abilities for each class?

Whirlwind
If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically. (Same as Jeff wrote it.)

Weapon Mastery
Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 1 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)
Dwarf Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 2 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)

Why do you assume that humans should prefer 1 handed weapons and Dwarves should prefer two handed?

I can tell you its not true for me.

Also, keep it simple. We are men of action. Let the Wizards have their endless debates about this or that. Get in there and mix it up.

Thats why I think all fighters can have Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery can be a choice you make in coaching to best suit your build. Everyone wins.

I think part of the problem is we may all have different views on what a "fighter", a "cleric", or a "wizard", or "fun" is supposed to be. I know mine at least seem to be diametrically opposed to what some of the people posting here seem to think.

If I were to give one bit of advice to Jeff it would be to decide on a vision of what he wants the class legendaries to do and go for it. Don't listen to much to us, we cant all be pleased at the same time and trying will just water down the soup until no one is happy.

Pick a direction, take feedback on that direction only, and go for it. Some of us will love it, some will hate it. And if there ends up being a play style under serviced by what you come up with, great that will be fodder for another legendary in a year or so.

Picc wrote: I think part of the problem is we may all have different views on what a "fighter", a "cleric", or a "wizard", or "fun" is supposed to be. I know mine at least seem to be diametrically opposed to what some of the people posting here seem to think.

If I were to give one bit of advice to Jeff it would be to decide on a vision of what he wants the class legendaries to do and go for it. Don't listen to much to us, we cant all be pleased at the same time and trying will just water down the soup until no one is happy.

Pick a direction, take feedback on that direction only, and go for it. Some of us will love it, some will hate it. And if there ends up being a play style under serviced by what you come up with, great that will be fodder for another legendary in a year or so.

+1

I was away for 15 hours and now I can't catch up, so I apologize if this has been stated before.

Edit: New post with new numbers that take into account specific items. Damage per round is 133 pts of automatically hitting for 9 rounds.

For reference, I created a wizard here: tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/bc73306e-ece3-4f4a-933f-8312fc953284
Key notes: This assumes a high tier with the legendary staff and ring, eldritch kilt and boots. Has Mad Evoker's Charm, Charm of Spell Swapping, Arcane Set, and Crown of Expertise

Wizard:
+15 to skill test. Works with Mad Evoker's Charm
5 new 1st level spell slots (UR book)
1 new to each 0, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell slots
Can cast spells as free actions

Spell damage I came up with is +26.

Idea: do max damage, have cleric or druid heal.
Magic Missile can do 8 + 15 (skill test) + 26 = 49
Magic Missile w/ Mad Evoker's does: 8 + 15 + 8 + 15 + 26 = 72 pts of damage that automatically hits for full damage (I can't think of any monsters that negate magic missile).

So, how many times can I cast Magic Missile?
3 from card
5 from spell book
1 from extra 1st level spell
1 from crown of expertise
1 from arcane set
7 from sacking all higher level spells
yields 18 times I can cast magic missile. Half of those as a free action. So, 3 rooms of combat, 3 rounds, yield 9 actions and 9 free actions. Perfect! I can cast Magic missile twice a round, every round of combat.

Each round I will do 72 + 72 pts = 144 pts of automatic damage that cannot be negated. For the entire dungeon.

Caveats: This requires a cleric or druid to heal (20 pts of self damage a turn is a lot). Probably want a paladin to guard you. And requires the memorization of the skill tests.

Key take away: A wizard can do 144 pts of damage every round 100% of the time where 100% of that damage gets through.

This is significant because the "big hitters" never have 100% success rate. And I can't see them getting that high of damage unless they crit (which in physical TD is more difficult). A monk build using Benrow's has a +34 to damage. So if both pucks hit, 64 + weapon damage = 75 ish... About half of what the wizard could do.

Monk build here: tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/b3e48f6c-480e-441b-9981-06f1649935f9

Edit: I am told spellbook doesn't actually add spell slots. So cast a 12 damage scroll instead of magic missile for those 5, and you're total is actually higher (as the scroll is now a spell, with a spell check, that can be used with MEC, adds your damage bonus)

Edit 2: New post with new numbers thanks to Phil.

Miathan wrote: I only commented negatively because the only reason one would want dex if for Thor’s. I don’t want anything in the class token just in case I want to use an older legendary, now if every weapon had dex restrictions that would be different.

A 2018 token is an "older legendary"? People could still make the Relic prerequisite until December of last year.

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

You are comparing with wizards best 5 rounds to 5 average Barbarian rounds.

The Wizard is down 50 HP - quite possibly dead.

At the very least make the Barbarian spend its 2 furies and calculate two slides as Crit If hit to have a comparison where both parties are using all their resources.

Consider what happens if combat goes 10 rounds over the course of the dungeon.

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

What if Fighters had Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery where Whirlwind works for both Fighter and Dwarf Fighter but Weapon Mastery has different abilities for each class?

Whirlwind
If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically. (Same as Jeff wrote it.)

Weapon Mastery
Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 1 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)
Dwarf Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 2 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)

Why do you assume that humans should prefer 1 handed weapons and Dwarves should prefer two handed?

I can tell you its not true for me.

Also, keep it simple. We are men of action. Let the Wizards have their endless debates about this or that. Get in there and mix it up.

Thats why I think all fighters can have Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery can be a choice you make in coaching to best suit your build. Everyone wins.

As long as your definition of everyone does not include Dwarf Fighters with one handed weapons. Or Humans who prefer Two Handed. Dictating weapon use is not choice..

Matt Goodman wrote: I was away for 15 hours and now I can't catch up, so I apologize if this has been stated before.

For reference, I created a wizard here: tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/bc73306e-ece3-4f4a-933f-8312fc953284
Key notes: This assumes a high tier with the legendary staff and ring, eldritch kilt and boots. Has Mad Evoker's Charm, Charm of Spell Swapping, Arcane Set, and Crown of Expertise

Wizard:
+15 to skill test. Works with Mad Evoker's Charm
5 new 1st level spell slots (UR book)
1 new to each 0, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell slots
Can cast spells as free actions

Spell damage I came up with is +26.

Idea: do max damage, have cleric or druid heal.
Magic Missile can do 8 + 15 (skill test) + 26 = 49
Magic Missile w/ Mad Evoker's does: 8 + 15 + 8 + 15 + 26 = 72 pts of damage that automatically hits for full damage (I can't think of any monsters that negate magic missile).

So, how many times can I cast Magic Missile?
3 from card
5 from spell book
1 from extra 1st level spell
1 from crown of expertise
1 from arcane set
7 from sacking all higher level spells
yields 18 times I can cast magic missile. Half of those as a free action. So, 3 rooms of combat, 3 rounds, yield 9 actions and 9 free actions. Perfect! I can cast Magic missile twice a round, every round of combat.

Each round I will do 72 + 72 pts = 144 pts of automatic damage that cannot be negated. For the entire dungeon.

Caveats: This requires a cleric or druid to heal (20 pts of self damage a turn is a lot). Probably want a paladin to guard you. And requires the memorization of the skill tests.

Key take away: A wizard can do 144 pts of damage every round 100% of the time where 100% of that damage gets through.

This is significant because the "big hitters" never have 100% success rate. And I can't see them getting that high of damage unless they crit (which in physical TD is more difficult). A monk build using Benrow's has a +34 to damage. So if both pucks hit, 64 + weapon damage = 75 ish... About half of what the wizard could do.

Monk build here: tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/b3e48f6c-480e-441b-9981-06f1649935f9

You probably need to bump that damage down a bit because MEC can only be used once per round.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: ...

Key take away: A wizard can do 144 pts of damage every round 100% of the time where 100% of that damage gets through.

This is significant because the "big hitters" never have 100% success rate. And I can't see them getting that high of damage unless they crit (which in physical TD is more difficult). A monk build using Benrow's has a +34 to damage. So if both pucks hit, 64 + weapon damage = 75 ish... About half of what the wizard could do.

...

You probably need to bump that damage down a bit because MEC can only be used once per round.

Thanks, I knew my thinking and math was slightly off. I think the idea is still valid though. So 120 pts every round, 100% of the time.