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TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #217

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.


After evaulation the other legendarys I agree on the fightering have 18-20 crit range on all weapons. I also think adding the ability to call a crit after sliding once or twice a run is acceptable also.


Would the expanded crit range be more palatable if limited to Melee?


I would be good with it covering both melee and range.


Well, sure I'd take it. :) Others may not be so positive about it. But, bring it on.


If you are meant to be the best at that then target it with the legendary. Your abilities should be commensurate with it whether you attack one-handed, two-handed, range and what every might become possible. Couple this with the ability to call that crit when you need it after sliding falls into line with this.

Trying to attack multiple foes and work that into the equation was causing me to go back and forth on how to balance it and then factor in how to run it resulted in something less optimal for what a fighter does best. I was finally able to seperate it out and think of what would make me happy if I played a fighter.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #218

No time to reread all of the posts/analysis. I'm just going add my current numbers. The wizard transmutes do a pretty insane amount of damage.

Assumptions
I used Elf Wizard (which I normally play, for my analysis)
Only spells that currently have a skill test listed will get the enhanced skill test. That is Magic Missile, Acid Splash and Shocking Grasp. It may have been alluded to previously, but I haven't seen it stated in the latest iteration that the new scroll/spells would also gain a skill test.
I assumed 3 combat rooms and a total of 8 rounds (very typical for a nightmare group). These numbers really do not apply to normal or hardcore runs. If you have all of these tokens, you shouldn't be running at those levels. If combat goes beyond the 8 rounds, the wizard ability diminishes quickly.
I'm assuming in 2021 that I can use my 2nd and 3rd level spell free actions from the new legendary and swap out the 3rd and 2nd level spells for more Magic Missiles

Build (items that contribute to spell damage, unless listed the bonus is the same for both years)
IS Banshee Prism - +2
Eldritch set - +3 in 2020/+4 in 2021
Bracelets of Cabal - +1
Arcane Belt - +2
Boots of 4 Winds - +5
Drake's Staff - +5
Relsa's Ring - +5
Shirt of Focus - +2
Earcuff of Inspiration - +4 (assume legendary level bard)
Lenses of Focus - +1
Gregor's Tome - +2

Total bonus damage - 32 in 2020/33 in 2021 (due to added eldritch item)

2020
Room 1 Round 1 - Fireball using MEC plus Magic Missile using Cabal = 115 damage
Room 1 Round 2 - Magic Missile using MEC = 54
Room 2 Round 3 - Fireball from COE using MEC plus Magic Missile using Cabal = 115
Room 2 Round 4 - Magic Missile using MEC = 54
Room 2 Round 5 - Acid Ray using MEC less 10% miss chance = 52
Room 3 Round 6 - Fireball from RoSS using MEC plus Magic Missile = 115
Room 3 Round 7 - Ray of Shock using MEC less 10% miss plus Acid Splash using Cabal = 99
Room 3 Round 8 - Ray of Shock using MEC less 10% = 61
Total Damage = 665 points
Extra Ray of Shock and Magic Missiles acquired through Charm of Spell Swapping

2021
Room 1 Round 1 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using cabal = 135
Room 1 Round 2 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Acid Splash using Medallion Free Action = 130
Room 2 Round 3 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using cabal = 135
Room 2 Round 4 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Acid Splash using Medallion Free Action = 130
Room 2 Round 5 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using RoSS = 135
Room 3 Round 6 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using cabal = 135
Room 3 Round 7 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using Medallion Free Action = 135
Room 3 Round 8 - Magic Missile using MEC plus Magic Missile using Medallion Free Action = 135
Total Damage = 1070 points
Extra Magic Missiles acquired through Charm of Spell Swapping, Ring of Spell Storing, Charm of Power and Crown of Expertise

Basically the skill test bonus pushes me to use magic missile as often as possible to the exclusion of all other spells. Unless the scrolls gain a skill test, they are worthless unless needed situationally. Similarly, you may want to use a fireball or two in rooms with more than 1 monster.

So the net gain over 8 rounds is 405 points of damage. Most of this is a result of the FA spells. A good chunk does come from enhanced MEC.

What do you lose?
In 2020 I had 64 hp, in 2021 I have 52. This assumes I add the new transmute IS.
I am unable to equip CoAS, so the entire party loses 1 hp and the party loses 1 to initiative rolls.
My saving throws go from 19/22/18 to 14/17/13. So there is a greater chance that monster effects will either damage me or stop me from casting my spells altogether.
Token losses that sting - Charm Necklace, Charm of Awakened Synergy, Charm of Brooching, IS Charming Cabochon, IS Topaz Trilliant, Cloak of Shadowskin (Or Greater Destiny), Semi-Lich Skull

I could look at dumping the Cabal set, but would lose 168 pts of overall damage. I could get some stuff back by losing the Arcane Belt, that would cost 32 points of damage, but I get 1 Charm and 2 IS back.

Anyway, every round past round 8 would be an Acid Splash or Shocking Grasp using MEC for 69 pts of damage. You would still have a handful of spells left. Not enough for grind, but plenty for the dungeon.

I'd love to cast more damage, but this is kind of excessive. Also, it's kind of boring to just keep swapping things out so I can do two magic missiles every round.
Last edit: by Dave.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #219

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.


After evaulation the other legendarys I agree on the fightering have 18-20 crit range on all weapons. I also think adding the ability to call a crit after sliding once or twice a run is acceptable also.


Would the expanded crit range be more palatable if limited to Melee?


I would be good with it covering both melee and range.


Well, sure I'd take it. :) Others may not be so positive about it. But, bring it on.


If you are meant to be the best at that then target it with the legendary. Your abilities should be commensurate with it whether you attack one-handed, two-handed, range and what every might become possible. Couple this with the ability to call that crit when you need it after sliding falls into line with this.

Trying to attack multiple foes and work that into the equation was causing me to go back and forth on how to balance it and then factor in how to run it resulted in something less optimal for what a fighter does best. I was finally able to seperate it out and think of what would make me happy if I played a fighter.


New keyword:
Weapon mastery
- 2 handed weapon gets critical ×3 /×4 DF
-1 handed gets crit range to 18-20
-ranged gets multi-attack aka ranged whirlwind

Must be chosen in coaching and marked on party card

This will give players choice and make for some unique build choices.
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
Last edit: by FatalDrakkon. Reason: Formatting
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #220

Did you mean 3X/4X on a crit?
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #221

Harlax wrote: Did you mean 3X/4X on a crit?


Big whoops, fixed it in my post.
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #222

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..


This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.


Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.


This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.


Edwin, I agree, it really doesn't give any advantages than melee polymorph, and doesn't really increase the amount of polymorph damage by very much. It needs a major overhaul.


Saying the Druid Legendary is too weak seems like a great thing to have talked about at the time of Druid legendary design and NOT a justification for making sure the Wizard legendary is weaker so the Druids aren’t alone in a sinking ship. Wizards are already the least loved, let’s not hamper them more so that Druid can “share the suffering”. Otherwise, please start campaigning to make every class legendary weaker please, especially Rogue and Monk.


Yeah, I am really confused by Mike trying to nerf the wizard legendary. Jeff has already commented about revisiting some of the class legendaries to tweak/rebalance after these are allbdone. If anything, Mike should be happy that the wizard legendary is so powerful, because that will make an easier case to improve the druid legendary.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #223

  • James
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Fiddy wrote:

Guedoji wrote: I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!... :whistle:


Clearly that should be the power of the transmuted dragon orbs next year, second neck slot! Any Neck token usable by any class ;)


My guess its going to be like the Rare Ghost items running around were the lesser is you pick between 2 slots and higher is you pick between 5 nothing ground breaking but nothing horrible, I don't think you will get a extra neck slot out of it.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #224

edwin wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..


This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.


Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.


This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.


Edwin, I agree, it really doesn't give any advantages than melee polymorph, and doesn't really increase the amount of polymorph damage by very much. It needs a major overhaul.


Saying the Druid Legendary is too weak seems like a great thing to have talked about at the time of Druid legendary design and NOT a justification for making sure the Wizard legendary is weaker so the Druids aren’t alone in a sinking ship. Wizards are already the least loved, let’s not hamper them more so that Druid can “share the suffering”. Otherwise, please start campaigning to make every class legendary weaker please, especially Rogue and Monk.


I think you misread what Mike and I were saying. We agree that the Druid legendary needs to strengthed and then some.


Well - I'm kind of saying both things. The Druid Legendary is clearly too weak and needs to be strengthened. At the same time, the Wizard with the proposed Legendary would be far too powerful, dealing significantly more damage than other classes. I certainly don't agree that the Wizards are the "least loved" class, there is a TON of Wizard love in tokens. I did actively advocate for some of the other Class Legendaries (like the Monk) to be weakened as well.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #225

kurtreznor wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..


This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.


Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.


This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.


Edwin, I agree, it really doesn't give any advantages than melee polymorph, and doesn't really increase the amount of polymorph damage by very much. It needs a major overhaul.


Saying the Druid Legendary is too weak seems like a great thing to have talked about at the time of Druid legendary design and NOT a justification for making sure the Wizard legendary is weaker so the Druids aren’t alone in a sinking ship. Wizards are already the least loved, let’s not hamper them more so that Druid can “share the suffering”. Otherwise, please start campaigning to make every class legendary weaker please, especially Rogue and Monk.


Yeah, I am really confused by Mike trying to nerf the wizard legendary. Jeff has already commented about revisiting some of the class legendaries to tweak/rebalance after these are allbdone. If anything, Mike should be happy that the wizard legendary is so powerful, because that will make an easier case to improve the druid legendary.


I'm not just advocating for the good of the Druid, I'm advocating for the good of the game. I don't think it's good for the game for some of these Class Legendary tokens to be so overpowered. I'm concerned in general of the long-term effects of power creep, and some of these Class Legendaries (I'm looking at you, Wizard Legendary) are kicking that into overdrive. I'd much rather all of the Class Legendaries be at a lower power level than all of them (including Druid) raised to an overpowered power level. To be honest, given how powerful these are becoming I wish that the Class Legendaries had never happened at all, but that ship has sailed.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #226

Harlax wrote:

macxdmg wrote: I just realized, the fighter “fight after death”is a slotted rare ability, and not the Barbarian Ro7P variant.


Are you referring to Amulet of Spiritward? That allows sliding after death, but no damage.

tokendb.com/token/shirt-of-the-valiant/

If slain by a melee attack, you may fight for 2 more rounds in the same combat

The rare shirt is better than the legendary effect.

Also, these Russian Doll quotes:

Are really mobile unfriendly

Playing True Dungeon since 2012.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #227

Endgame wrote:

Flik wrote: Just running out of things for the cleric to even do. No one wants more healing (they will reference LODS nerf). We can keep resurrection to consumables every player has 10 of in any high group (rare potions).

So what can we let the cleric item do? Restore power, spell, and turn undead only?

It becomes difficult to find abilities we can put on the necklace that seem to even do anything that will make everyone happy. It seems like cleric and maybe Druid are the only classes that have this problem, and we know unhappy druids are about their item. Everyone else gets more damage, the bard item is great, the rogue item is downright insane, and we can’t let the clerics even heal more. Not one iteration has ever sniffed +healing.

But this is the first line of transmutes that everyone has been high on out of four revisions. I don’t know what else we can do.

Also the DI power was nerfed in the second iteration to only be able to res one instead of rolling to res everyone on a 19-20.

I got negative comments even suggestion a Dex boost on the legendary only....


I only commented negatively because the only reason one would want dex if for Thor’s. I don’t want anything in the class token just in case I want to use an older legendary, now if every weapon had dex restrictions that would be different.

As for where the cleric token is I would like to see the resurrection go away and return the mass heal or better yet let us give up a damage spell for a non heal/damage spell so we can buff more. I was also very happy with the original change healing time damage, I thought it was a different way to play and something that could have had some fun builds around, making sure one member in your party has all the buffs to others healing them to get even more dam. I do want to keep the buffs as FA because I like to slide so I can change my build to accommodate a little extra damage or try and brush up my bumping skills. Restore spell and power are usable as FA imo because it always sucked giving up my turn for someone else to use, it was the smart thing to do so you do it but it makes for a boring final round
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 2 weeks ago #228

FatalDrakkon wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.


After evaulation the other legendarys I agree on the fightering have 18-20 crit range on all weapons. I also think adding the ability to call a crit after sliding once or twice a run is acceptable also.


Would the expanded crit range be more palatable if limited to Melee?


I would be good with it covering both melee and range.


Well, sure I'd take it. :) Others may not be so positive about it. But, bring it on.


If you are meant to be the best at that then target it with the legendary. Your abilities should be commensurate with it whether you attack one-handed, two-handed, range and what every might become possible. Couple this with the ability to call that crit when you need it after sliding falls into line with this.

Trying to attack multiple foes and work that into the equation was causing me to go back and forth on how to balance it and then factor in how to run it resulted in something less optimal for what a fighter does best. I was finally able to seperate it out and think of what would make me happy if I played a fighter.


New keyword:
Weapon mastery
- 2 handed weapon gets critical ×3 /×4 DF
-1 handed gets crit range to 18-20
-ranged gets multi-attack aka ranged whirlwind

Must be chosen in coaching and marked on party card

This will give players choice and make for some unique build choices.


This choice is really interesting. But I also really like the melee exclusivity for Whirlwind thematically. It's like the opposite of a Rage attack from Barbarian. Instead of blind fury, it's the culmination of years of training where the Fighter is "in the zone" being precise and deadly with their sword... so deadly that they have time left in their manuver to hit another target with just as much deadly force as their first.

What if Fighters had Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery where Whirlwind works for both Fighter and Dwarf Fighter but Weapon Mastery has different abilities for each class?

Whirlwind
If you hit one monster in the room with a melee attack, and another monster is also in melee range, the same amount of damage will be done to the second monster automatically. (Same as Jeff wrote it.)

Weapon Mastery
Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 1 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)
Dwarf Fighter - Crit on (18-20) with 2 handed weapons (Both melee and ranged.)
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