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TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #205

Guedoji wrote: I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!... :whistle:


What version are the legendary are you referring too?

The current version is very desirable and puts wizards on top of the damage pile with or without a MEC.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #206

Guedoji wrote: I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!... :whistle:


Clearly that should be the power of the transmuted dragon orbs next year, second neck slot! Any Neck token usable by any class ;)
Last edit: by Fiddy.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #207

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..


This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.


Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.


This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.


Edwin, I agree, it really doesn't give any advantages than melee polymorph, and doesn't really increase the amount of polymorph damage by very much. It needs a major overhaul.


Saying the Druid Legendary is too weak seems like a great thing to have talked about at the time of Druid legendary design and NOT a justification for making sure the Wizard legendary is weaker so the Druids aren’t alone in a sinking ship. Wizards are already the least loved, let’s not hamper them more so that Druid can “share the suffering”. Otherwise, please start campaigning to make every class legendary weaker please, especially Rogue and Monk.


I think you misread what Mike and I were saying. We agree that the Druid legendary needs to strengthed and then some.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #208

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
The topic has been locked.

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #209

FatalDrakkon wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.


After evaulation the other legendarys I agree on the fightering have 18-20 crit range on all weapons. I also think adding the ability to call a crit after sliding once or twice a run is acceptable also.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #210

edwin wrote:

Guedoji wrote: I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!... :whistle:


What version are the legendary are you referring too?

The current version is very desirable and puts wizards on top of the damage pile with or without a MEC.


I'm not. Just seeing consistent arguments over the past week that people don't want to give up their current neck items. This is a purly a self satisfying, last ditch effort to plug the idea to let me wear my relic and my AoTF using others dissatisfaction of choosing between their favorite neck piece and their legendary. Let the OP anger commence, but yes... You can ignore me. ;)
Last edit: by Guedoji.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #211

Guedoji wrote:

edwin wrote:

Guedoji wrote: I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!... :whistle:


What version are the legendary are you referring too?

The current version is very desirable and puts wizards on top of the damage pile with or without a MEC.


I'm not. Just seeing consistent arguments over the past week that people don't want to give up their current neck items. This is a purly a self satisfying, last ditch effort to plug the idea to let me wear my relic and my AoTF using others dissatisfaction of choosing between their favorite neck piece and their legendary. Let the OP anger commence, but yes... You can ignore me. ;)


The neck slot is one of the most valueable if not the most valueable slots due to class legendarys and other desirable tokens in that slot.

I would think that since the Charm of Avarice is a charm that it wouldn't hurt to ask to see if the AoTF could be reslotted to a Charm.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #212

edwin wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.


After evaulation the other legendarys I agree on the fightering have 18-20 crit range on all weapons. I also think adding the ability to call a crit after sliding once or twice a run is acceptable also.


Would the expanded crit range be more palatable if limited to Melee?
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #213

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.


After evaulation the other legendarys I agree on the fightering have 18-20 crit range on all weapons. I also think adding the ability to call a crit after sliding once or twice a run is acceptable also.


Would the expanded crit range be more palatable if limited to Melee?


I would be good with it covering both melee and range.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #214

edwin wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

edwin wrote:

Guedoji wrote: I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!... :whistle:


What version are the legendary are you referring too?

The current version is very desirable and puts wizards on top of the damage pile with or without a MEC.


I'm not. Just seeing consistent arguments over the past week that people don't want to give up their current neck items. This is a purly a self satisfying, last ditch effort to plug the idea to let me wear my relic and my AoTF using others dissatisfaction of choosing between their favorite neck piece and their legendary. Let the OP anger commence, but yes... You can ignore me. ;)


The neck slot is one of the most valueable if not the most valueable slots due to class legendarys and other desirable tokens in that slot.

I would think that since the Charm of Avarice is a charm that it wouldn't hurt to ask to see if the AoTF could be reslotted to a Charm.


That already exists. It is called the Charm of Good Fortune. The tradeoff for going from Neck to Charm is that you are only guaranteed 2 treasure instead of 4, but you can potentially still get 4.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #215

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.


After evaulation the other legendarys I agree on the fightering have 18-20 crit range on all weapons. I also think adding the ability to call a crit after sliding once or twice a run is acceptable also.


Would the expanded crit range be more palatable if limited to Melee?


I would be good with it covering both melee and range.


Well, sure I'd take it. :) Others may not be so positive about it. But, bring it on.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
The topic has been locked.

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 3 months ago #216

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? ;-) Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.


+1 all of this. Very eloquently said.

I agree the death attack should be traded for 18-20 crit but everything else looks great on the fighter legendary.

Wizard legendary I think just needs +5 damage and it will be in a better place.

Cleric parth looking good to me.


After evaulation the other legendarys I agree on the fightering have 18-20 crit range on all weapons. I also think adding the ability to call a crit after sliding once or twice a run is acceptable also.


Would the expanded crit range be more palatable if limited to Melee?


I think that could work because fighters are supposed to be melee specialists and rangers can be the ranged physical damage dealers.
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
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