TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

Just running out of things for the cleric to even do. No one wants more healing (they will reference LODS nerf). We can keep resurrection to consumables every player has 10 of in any high group (rare potions).

So what can we let the cleric item do? Restore power, spell, and turn undead only?

It becomes difficult to find abilities we can put on the necklace that seem to even do anything that will make everyone happy. It seems like cleric and maybe Druid are the only classes that have this problem, and we know unhappy druids are about their item. Everyone else gets more damage, the bard item is great, the rogue item is downright insane, and we can’t let the clerics even heal more. Not one iteration has ever sniffed +healing.

But this is the first line of transmutes that everyone has been high on out of four revisions. I don’t know what else we can do.

Also the DI power was nerfed in the second iteration to only be able to res one instead of rolling to res everyone on a 19-20.

Flik wrote: Just running out of things for the cleric to even do. No one wants more healing (they will reference LODS nerf). We can keep resurrection to consumables every player has 10 of in any high group (rare potions).

So what can we let the cleric item do? Restore power, spell, and turn undead only?

It becomes difficult to find abilities we can put on the necklace that seem to even do anything that will make everyone happy. It seems like cleric and maybe Druid are the only classes that have this problem, and we know unhappy druids are about their item. Everyone else gets more damage, the bard item is great, the rogue item is downright insane, and we can’t let the clerics even heal more. Not one iteration has ever sniffed +healing.

But this is the first line of transmutes that everyone has been high on out of four revisions. I don’t know what else we can do.

Also the DI power was nerfed in the second iteration to only be able to res one instead of rolling to res everyone on a 19-20.

I am surprised that healing bonuses aren't included on these tokens. That is what the Cleric does best. It seems pretty backward that healing has to be so constricted but damage dealing is increasing in leaps and bounds.

Flik wrote: Just running out of things for the cleric to even do. No one wants more healing (they will reference LODS nerf). We can keep resurrection to consumables every player has 10 of in any high group (rare potions).

So what can we let the cleric item do? Restore power, spell, and turn undead only?

It becomes difficult to find abilities we can put on the necklace that seem to even do anything that will make everyone happy. It seems like cleric and maybe Druid are the only classes that have this problem, and we know unhappy druids are about their item. Everyone else gets more damage, the bard item is great, the rogue item is downright insane, and we can’t let the clerics even heal more. Not one iteration has ever sniffed +healing.

But this is the first line of transmutes that everyone has been high on out of four revisions. I don’t know what else we can do.

Also the DI power was nerfed in the second iteration to only be able to res one instead of rolling to res everyone on a 19-20.

I got negative comments even suggestion a Dex boost on the legendary only....

Flik wrote: Just running out of things for the cleric to even do. No one wants more healing (they will reference LODS nerf). We can keep resurrection to consumables every player has 10 of in any high group (rare potions).

So what can we let the cleric item do? Restore power, spell, and turn undead only?

It becomes difficult to find abilities we can put on the necklace that seem to even do anything that will make everyone happy. It seems like cleric and maybe Druid are the only classes that have this problem, and we know unhappy druids are about their item. Everyone else gets more damage, the bard item is great, the rogue item is downright insane, and we can’t let the clerics even heal more. Not one iteration has ever sniffed +healing.

But this is the first line of transmutes that everyone has been high on out of four revisions. I don’t know what else we can do.

Also the DI power was nerfed in the second iteration to only be able to res one instead of rolling to res everyone on a 19-20.

Would you prefer flat + heal over the action economy that the current setup provides?

I think what's been presented in this latest iteration makes for interesting gameplay. A simple bonus to healing would have been helpful for some groups, but fairly uninteresting (to me).

I did like the heal everyone 10 > res, but I could see how that steps on the Bard.

People seem unhappy that the Fighter legendary steps on a Barbarian subclass. So it seems find to me to leave group healing as one of the Bard's notes.

Arnold wrote:

Flik wrote: Just running out of things for the cleric to even do. No one wants more healing (they will reference LODS nerf). We can keep resurrection to consumables every player has 10 of in any high group (rare potions).

So what can we let the cleric item do? Restore power, spell, and turn undead only?

It becomes difficult to find abilities we can put on the necklace that seem to even do anything that will make everyone happy. It seems like cleric and maybe Druid are the only classes that have this problem, and we know unhappy druids are about their item. Everyone else gets more damage, the bard item is great, the rogue item is downright insane, and we can’t let the clerics even heal more. Not one iteration has ever sniffed +healing.

But this is the first line of transmutes that everyone has been high on out of four revisions. I don’t know what else we can do.

Also the DI power was nerfed in the second iteration to only be able to res one instead of rolling to res everyone on a 19-20.

Would you prefer flat + heal over the action economy that the current setup provides?

I think what's been presented in this latest iteration makes for interesting gameplay. A simple bonus to healing would have been helpful for some groups, but fairly uninteresting (to me).

I did like the heal everyone 10 > res, but I could see how that steps on the Bard.

People seem unhappy that the Fighter legendary steps on a Barbarian subclass. So it seems find to me to leave group healing as one of the Bard's notes.

No I actually like what we have now. Trying to argue to keep it. But yes I wanted flat +healing ever since the beginning. Keep it simple imo. But I know people don't want it.

I just don't think any of the cleric abilities really add to the fun of the class for me which I think is the biggest disappointment, the most fun I had with a cleric was playing a Templar in a turkey leg run and I didn't even use any spells on that run. I was doing 50 points of damage on crits with a turkey leg.

Flik wrote: Just running out of things for the cleric to even do. No one wants more healing (they will reference LODS nerf). We can keep resurrection to consumables every player has 10 of in any high group (rare potions).

So what can we let the cleric item do? Restore power, spell, and turn undead only?

Oh, you can swing a melee weapon...
...as long as you are worse than the combat classes.

Or you can use a ranged weapon...
...as long as you are worse than EVERYONE else.

Mike Steele wrote:

Flik wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Granting the UR consumable Elixir of Life as a permanent ability to the Necklace of Sacred Beads seems like a big mistake. Not only does it seem very overpowered for a Relic (or even Legendary), but it takes a lot of tension out of the game because death essentially means nothing. I'll absolutely get one for our Cleric, and expect I'll never need to use a Potion of Death's Door again.

Really? So you tend to have one and only one person die on runs? Because this is a 1/game effect. It is useful sure, but I'd say it is a far ways from eliminating the need for PoDD.

We very rarely have anyone die on a run, far less than one death per run average.

So then the proposed power on the relic will never be used then?

My group will rarely use it, but then we are a pretty well outfitted group that usually plays Hardcore, so we're probably not the main audience for this. I imagine groups playing Nightmare and Epic will see more Deaths than we do. And I still think it's a big mistake to make resurrection a part of these tokens, I think that should be reserved for consumable tokens.

Why? Why should it stay consumable? "Because"?

It sounds like you have no use for it, but think it will somehow ruin the fun of people playing Nightmare/Epic. As someone that does play Nightmare/Epic (and even sometimes Epic Grind.. and maybe even occasionally dies), I'd have fun with this. Would my consumable resurrection use go down? Maybe some. Would it go away entirely? Almost no chance.

Re: cleric relic
Sorry, not that excited.
One rez per game is okay, but our groups seldom die. When we do, it’s always some failed-save irrevocable death: disintegrated, swallowed whole, fell into the void. Unless it’s an irrevocable rez that trumps irrevocable death, I guess it’s just okay.

The 2nd level FA spells are okay, but I’d rather it included 1st as well. Or, maybe ignore level and just make all non-heal spells FA. I’d take “cast one spell per room as FA.” Otherwise I’m giving up Charm Necklace plus a fourth charm, so I guess Mjolnir goes into mothballs for good. Add +3 DEX and I’d be happier.

Re: cleric legendary
No comment

Re: Druid items
I get they seem relatively underpowered. But I consider Druids to be one of the top three OP classes (they certainly trounce clerics in every category except turning undead) so I’m okay with their items lagging behind the rest.

I’m probably the only one who feels that way about it.

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.

Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.

This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.

Edwin, I agree, it really doesn't give any advantages than melee polymorph, and doesn't really increase the amount of polymorph damage by very much. It needs a major overhaul.

Saying the Druid Legendary is too weak seems like a great thing to have talked about at the time of Druid legendary design and NOT a justification for making sure the Wizard legendary is weaker so the Druids aren’t alone in a sinking ship. Wizards are already the least loved, let’s not hamper them more so that Druid can “share the suffering”. Otherwise, please start campaigning to make every class legendary weaker please, especially Rogue and Monk.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Re: cleric relic
Sorry, not that excited.
One rez per game is okay, but our groups seldom die. When we do, it’s always some failed-save irrevocable death: disintegrated, swallowed whole, fell into the void. Unless it’s an irrevocable rez that trumps irrevocable death, I guess it’s just okay.

The 2nd level FA spells are okay, but I’d rather it included 1st as well. Or, maybe ignore level and just make all non-heal spells FA. I’d take “cast one spell per room as FA.” Otherwise I’m giving up Charm Necklace plus a fourth charm, so I guess Mjolnir goes into mothballs for good. Add +3 DEX and I’d be happier.

Re: cleric legendary
No comment

Re: Druid items
I get they seem relatively underpowered. But I consider Druids to be one of the top three OP classes (they certainly trounce clerics in every category except turning undead) so I’m okay with their items lagging behind the rest.

I’m probably the only one who feels that way about it.

Boy, I shouldn't go down this rabbit hole, but you really think Druids are more powerful than two of the group of Wizard, Elf Wizard, Ranger, and Monk? I think they are further down the list than that, but there seems to be a general consensus that those are the top 4 classes (and that's before the Wizard Legendary).

I've read a ton of people say they do not want to give up Charm Necklace for their legendary. Maybe Charm Necklace is too strong and should be nerfed... Or... maybe we should get a second neck slot!...