TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

The other consideration on the Fighter Legendary is recipe (way ahead of the game, but bear with me) If the usual Legendary recipe is repeated, that means two URs will be part of it. Am I really going to burn two PYPs that could help my build for these abilities? Probably not. Of course many Legendary tokens don't really stand up to a cost benefit analysis.

And, looking just at my situation, I'd be better off my resources to upgrade from Greater Cloak of Destiny to Pharacus. +2 saves are, in my opinion, better than anything gained from the class Legendary. Unless Dungeon design changes to make Whirlwind more common.

Most likely I'll wait a year or two and see how things shake out before making a decision on the Legendary.

And I'm not forgetting that Jeff made a cryptic comment in the previous Fighter Legendary thread about a possible future Legendary weapon that would have synergistic effects with the class Legendary. All the more reason to take a wait and see approach.

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.

Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.

Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.

This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.

How often does the final room go to 5 rounds? It’s more like the last 2 rooms.

With cabal and charm of power, in addition the previously listed items, it’s more than 6 rounds - probably a whole dungeon worth.

This is why free actions are bad. The problem isn't the extra damage from the skill check, it's the free actions. They scale so fast they easily get out of control.

Edit: Well, and the MEC, but this isn't the thread for that.

Mike Steele wrote: Granting the UR consumable Elixir of Life as a permanent ability to the Necklace of Sacred Beads seems like a big mistake. Not only does it seem very overpowered for a Relic (or even Legendary), but it takes a lot of tension out of the game because death essentially means nothing. I'll absolutely get one for our Cleric, and expect I'll never need to use a Potion of Death's Door again.

Really? So you tend to have one and only one person die on runs? Because this is a 1/game effect. It is useful sure, but I'd say it is a far ways from eliminating the need for PoDD.

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Miathan wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

This math is really only for the last room since they don’t have unlimited free action spells.

Edwin, thanks for doing the math, I do think it shows the damage Wizards are going to be able to do is completely broken. With two Wizards, nobody else in the group even needs to attack, the Wizards alone can finish off all the monsters.

Maybe the Wizard Class tokens should focus on abilities that don't increase spell damage, like the Cleric and Druid ones do.

This made me realize just how underpowered the Druid Legendary is. It would need TWEAKS instead tweaks couple with other URs to even come into the same neighborhood.

Edwin, I agree, it really doesn't give any advantages than melee polymorph, and doesn't really increase the amount of polymorph damage by very much. It needs a major overhaul.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Granting the UR consumable Elixir of Life as a permanent ability to the Necklace of Sacred Beads seems like a big mistake. Not only does it seem very overpowered for a Relic (or even Legendary), but it takes a lot of tension out of the game because death essentially means nothing. I'll absolutely get one for our Cleric, and expect I'll never need to use a Potion of Death's Door again.

Really? So you tend to have one and only one person die on runs? Because this is a 1/game effect. It is useful sure, but I'd say it is a far ways from eliminating the need for PoDD.

We very rarely have anyone die on a run, far less than one death per run average.

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Granting the UR consumable Elixir of Life as a permanent ability to the Necklace of Sacred Beads seems like a big mistake. Not only does it seem very overpowered for a Relic (or even Legendary), but it takes a lot of tension out of the game because death essentially means nothing. I'll absolutely get one for our Cleric, and expect I'll never need to use a Potion of Death's Door again.

Really? So you tend to have one and only one person die on runs? Because this is a 1/game effect. It is useful sure, but I'd say it is a far ways from eliminating the need for PoDD.

We very rarely have anyone die on a run, far less than one death per run average.

So really what you're saying is, it's a dead ability if it requires player death?

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Granting the UR consumable Elixir of Life as a permanent ability to the Necklace of Sacred Beads seems like a big mistake. Not only does it seem very overpowered for a Relic (or even Legendary), but it takes a lot of tension out of the game because death essentially means nothing. I'll absolutely get one for our Cleric, and expect I'll never need to use a Potion of Death's Door again.

Really? So you tend to have one and only one person die on runs? Because this is a 1/game effect. It is useful sure, but I'd say it is a far ways from eliminating the need for PoDD.

We very rarely have anyone die on a run, far less than one death per run average.

So then the proposed power on the relic will never be used then?

Flik wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Granting the UR consumable Elixir of Life as a permanent ability to the Necklace of Sacred Beads seems like a big mistake. Not only does it seem very overpowered for a Relic (or even Legendary), but it takes a lot of tension out of the game because death essentially means nothing. I'll absolutely get one for our Cleric, and expect I'll never need to use a Potion of Death's Door again.

Really? So you tend to have one and only one person die on runs? Because this is a 1/game effect. It is useful sure, but I'd say it is a far ways from eliminating the need for PoDD.

We very rarely have anyone die on a run, far less than one death per run average.

So then the proposed power on the relic will never be used then?

My group will rarely use it, but then we are a pretty well outfitted group that usually plays Hardcore, so we're probably not the main audience for this. I imagine groups playing Nightmare and Epic will see more Deaths than we do. And I still think it's a big mistake to make resurrection a part of these tokens, I think that should be reserved for consumable tokens.