TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

Let's assume the wizard dead without any help after cutting 4 times.

Taking it further and let's say a human Wizard who does not own an MEC or won't use one due to having too few hit points and no healing support in the party.

Human Wizard without MEC over 5 rounds does 620 damage.

Barbarian without critical over 5 rounds does 385 damage. With one critical over 5 rounds does 462 damage. With two criticals over 5 rounds does 539 damage. This is a 40% critical rate and is still left behind by the human Wizard.

Ranger melee without critical over 5 rounds does 390 damage. With one critical over 5 rounds does 429 damage. With two criticals over 5 rounds does 468 damage. With three criticals over 5 rounds does 507 damage. With four criticals over 5 rounds does 546 damage. This is a 40% critical rate and is still left behind by the human Wizard.

New Duke Nukem in town.

I'm exhausted. I can only imagine how Jeff feels. He's thrown a lot ideas at us and the only consensus I see is that there is none and trying to build that consensus is a fool's quest. It's not going to happen. In the end, I'm sure Jeff will consider a lot of the comments made, but then do what he thinks is in the best interest of the game and players. Not everyone will agree. Some will love it. Some will hate it.

I think part of the issue is that over the years so many nuances have been built into wizard damage that you can't change one area without inadvertently impacting the others. Some spells have Skill Tests, some don't. Some spells require sliding, some don't. Some don't require anything, but are automatic. But never assume a spell is automatic. It doesn't happen often, but in some rooms there is spell resistance and a spell can completely fail. Or monsters can be immune to one type of attack and if you try that spell, it does 0 damage. So don't assume max damage every time. Then there's MEC and spell swapping and those who like to use wands. How do you maintain a balance between all of that. You can't. And thus someone is going to see a negative impact to their preferred approach to being a wizard.

At least I have one advantage Jeff doesn't. I can walk away from this for a while and just come back later and adapt to whatever is decided. Jeff has product deadlines if he wants to get a new set made. I wish him the best of luck. I may complain a bit now, but in the end I will support whatever he decides.

Endgame wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
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Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard with the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

Yeah , way, way too much damage. We shouldn’t be talking about how a wizard just shot past a 100% crit rate Barbarian in total damage. Spells have No chance to miss, no penalty for flying monster, and aren’t even going to be threatened to run out now with the proposed charm of power.

To put this in perspective, if Trent rolls a crit 20% of the time, it would happen somewhere around 1:312,500 TD runs to do more damage than the Wizard over 5 rounds of combat.

I just realized, the fighter “fight after death”is a slotted rare ability, and not the Barbarian Ro7P variant.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: My damage calculations were clearly off on comparing it vs wands. I have had more negative experiences, and I am a player who loves doing the Skill Tests even after having these negative experiences!

I do not own MEC, MEC is not a 2021 PYP, I am treating the legendary more as a stand alone token that shouldn’t need other tokens to buff it (especially a Ring of Sacrifice style token that deals 40 damage to self over the course of a dungeon, everyone has made it clear a token dealing that much damage is clearly bad). And I don’t personally own MEC or have a ton of interest in dealing myself that much damage when I am already having a tougher time staying alive. (I run in a group with an Elf Wizard, we cant both be guarded every round.)

On a swap from MoMM to the Relic necklace, without the use of MEC currently

Jinn's Spellbook - Lightning Bolt scroll for 12 damage base + 12 damage on successful spell check = 24+damage bonus

Level 1 Spell Magic Missile for 8 damage base + 8 from Medallion of Mystic Mouth + 3 from successful spell check = 19+spell damage bonus at the cost of a rare wand every room

Jinn's Spellbook - Lightning Bolt scroll for 12 damage base + 8 from Medallion of Mystic Mouth + 3 from successful spell check = 23+spell damage bonus at the cost of a rare wand every room

In all 3 scenerios you end up ahead in damage when using the Relic by at least 1 damage.

Purely swapping the MoMM for the Relic necklace without changing any other equips is a damage bonus of 5 and the ability to swap the elemental type of your attack to potentially deal additional damage (currently only available via the circlet/crown of elemental mastery)

+1 damage to go from 2 URs to a Relic feels like a really small upgrade. I get it saves the rare wand which is a really nice upgrade for someone like me in specific who hates consumables (which is why I don’t use MoMM and never will), but for the people who do use consumables this is such a small upgrade for such a high resource investment. And it is going to decrease their options for damage typing unless they pair the relic with Crown/Circlet of Elemental Mastery (which means no Crown of Focus, which means 1 less spell damage. Or no Crown of Expertise), so it feels like a lateral move to go from those 2 URs to this Relic and the Relic should really feel like more of a vertical move. Maybe make the relic version +12 base damage on all spells (regardless of skill check or slide, and skill check still boosts +3 normally) and then it is just a tiny bit better and starts to be enough extra damage where I would see that as an upgrade over the 2 URs (like going from a +2 Focus UR to a +3 Focus Relic).

I'm trying to follow your numbers but unfortunately I just cant.

Without the Relic you are at 19 damage and costs a wand per room.

With the Relic alone you are at 24 damage at no cost of a wand and you have the ability to slot in at least 4 damage scrolls at 12 damage each.

that's a 5 damage increase for swapping only the necklace and equipping 1 rare scroll which will be reprinted in 2021. AND that removes the requirement to burn 3 wands every run. That seems like a solidly strong upgrade?

The +1 damage was comparing the relic to using mystic mouth AND jinns spellbook charm.

I don't know much about wizard tokens and their interactions but I think I'm starting to understand the problem with the wizard relic and legendary:

If you put it in the neck slot then it needs to either come up with such a new and powerful effect that it is hands above better than the other choices, or it needs to include many of the necessary tokens to be even considered.

And that's the problem with "best in slot" tokens, it needs to beat the competition and by a fair margin.

Cleric path looks pretty good, fighter path is nearly there but I think the wizards need to determine specifically what stats and tokens they want to duplicate and which interactions they need.

This will build a "wishlist" for Jeff and I'm sure you will be mostly happy with the result.

edwin wrote: Let's assume the wizard dead without any help after cutting 4 times.

Taking it further and let's say a human Wizard who does not own an MEC or won't use one due to having too few hit points and no healing support in the party.

Human Wizard without MEC over 5 rounds does 620 damage.

Barbarian without critical over 5 rounds does 385 damage. With one critical over 5 rounds does 462 damage. With two criticals over 5 rounds does 539 damage. This is a 40% critical rate and is still left behind by the human Wizard.

Ranger melee without critical over 5 rounds does 390 damage. With one critical over 5 rounds does 429 damage. With two criticals over 5 rounds does 468 damage. With three criticals over 5 rounds does 507 damage. With four criticals over 5 rounds does 546 damage. This is a 40% critical rate and is still left behind by the human Wizard.

New Duke Nukem in town.

All of this also assumes the wizard gets the skill check correct every time.
...and, presumably, equips ALL the focus items to get +35? In lieu of equipping almost anything else? I don't know, I'm nowhere near that when I play wizard.

macxdmg wrote: I just realized, the fighter “fight after death”is a slotted rare ability, and not the Barbarian Ro7P variant.

Are you referring to Amulet of Spiritward? That allows sliding after death, but no damage.

Late to the game I know, but here goes.

Cleric Relic: wow, a free fallen star or gem of last hope seems really good, as does making things free actions. More free actions means the Cleric can do even more and still attack. I also love the *may* as it means that they can do 2 of the same thing in one round. Might be a bit too good.

Cleric Legendary: So glad divine intervention is back. I think it's worth it, and I think most teams will want one.

Fighter relic: Incredible Stats. Love the melee shield comment, though many with Averon's wont love it. It doesnt feel very *special* to me, some seem excited.

Fighter Legendary: Kind of men, unless we start seeing more multiple monster rooms. Fight after death is not going to come up much, kind of like animal companion or the Druid polymorph potion ability, but it's there for fun. Least exciting to me.

Wizard relic: I'm not a huge fan of skill checks. Maybe make this +6 spell damage and double skill check damage?

Wizard Legendary: free action spells are great. Maybe +9 spell damage and triple skill checks. Either way, if I'm playing wizard, I'll want this one.

Light blues:
Tankard is great, Shirt is nice for newer players.
Gloves seem odd.
Bead is great, Ill likely carry several for newer players to borrow.

Skull is great. "All" power tiers allows for adjustment and additional later.

FatalDrakkon wrote: I don't know much about wizard tokens and their interactions but I think I'm starting to understand the problem with the wizard relic and legendary:

If you put it in the neck slot then it needs to either come up with such a new and powerful effect that it is hands above better than the other choices, or it needs to include many of the necessary tokens to be even considered.

And that's the problem with "best in slot" tokens, it needs to beat the competition and by a fair margin.

It isn't just a matter of replacing BiS though. There are currently no Relic/Legendary Neck tokens that aren't class transmutes. So there aren't clear guidelines on what the default power progression for Relic/Legendary Neck tokens should be, absent being tied to the particulars of a class and the default assumptions around those classes which then get jumbled into the discussions. In hindsight, it probably would have been good to have a useful-to-all Relic/Legendary Neck first, so that tradeoffs between those and the class-specific ones could be discussed and a stronger baseline for comparison would exist.

If the purpose of combining all the threads was to get everyone's take on all these tokens, here goes...

Cleric Relic - Looks good.
Cleric Legendary - Looks good.

Figher Relic - Looks good.
Fighter Legendary - I will never spend my resources to make this token. Whirlwind is a cool power but the second ability exclusive to this token, doing one final attack after dying, is not an incentive for me. However, going back to the previous version with an expanded CRIT of (18-20) would change the situation completely.

Wizard Relic - I like the skill check bonus. Players at the Legendary level should be experts at their skill checks and this rewards them.
Wizad Legendary - Taking into account that Wizards can play their class very differently based on the tokens they use, this token needs to accomodate and boost all the of the possible styles. Not sure how that happens other than a straight small bonus of +5 dmg across the board.

Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard - Everyone will make this token. It's especially good for newer players in non-fighter-type classes. Love the tribute to The Dark Crystal.

Shirt of the Elder - Looks good.

Tankard of Celebration - You're giving The Blue Brotherhood another reason to be rowdy in the dungeon? Love it!

Greater Ring of Reflexes - Looks good.

Master Ale Drinker's Bead - Looks good.

Master Drinker's Gloves - This is good for newer players, but I'm afraid the copy being so specific might scare them off. Can the copy be simplified somehow?

Skull of Cavadar - Love it. Wish it gave me protection from Psychic Blast. Also, love the art.

Hi Jeff,

I haven't read through the 15 pages of comments, but here are mine:

Granting the UR consumable Elixir of Life as a permanent ability to the Necklace of Sacred Beads seems like a big mistake. Not only does it seem very overpowered for a Relic (or even Legendary), but it takes a lot of tension out of the game because death essentially means nothing. I'll absolutely get one for our Cleric, and expect I'll never need to use a Potion of Death's Door again.

Druegar's Sacred Necklace: I'll admit, I'm having trouble finding the Divine Intervention definition again, maybe all that should be reprinted in the first post of this thread again? I think it is a die 20 roll, which heals and/or resurrects. My comments from Relic are even more appropriate here, the Cleric can resurrect any one character, and has a chance of resurrecting all characters, each game. That seems incredibly overpowered, and again really lowers the stakes of the game by making death irrelevant. These Class Legendaries seem like the Artifacts cycle all over again, the power levels just keep getting ramped up each year. But at least we're going to go back and look at all the power levels for all the classes to hopefully bring them all up to the same power level.

Amulet of Noble Might: This also seems very very powerful. Way too powerful. It's very discouraging to go through such a laborious process just recently with the Eldritch Kilt of Dungeonbane where giving +6 to either St, Dex, or Con was considered way too powerful to make, and now here is a Relic that gives a combined +14 to those attributes, PLUS incorporates the equivalent of the Ring of Reflexes. I do like the image of the Fighter using his shield to deflect attacks. Severely overpowered.

Viv's: Whirlwind attack should probably be limited to once per room. 1 Melee attack per room after dying is fine. It's still overpowered because of the overpowered Relic it gets all the bonuses from.

Mage Medallion: I was incorrect on the UR thread when I said the Wizard UR stacked with the Relic, I see that it is incorporated into the Relic. Why does the Wizard Relic/UR incorporate the powers of the Wizard UR, while the Cleric Relic doesn't? That saves the Wizard a Charm slot over the Cleric, which doesn't seem right. This should be like the Cleric, where it doesn't include the spellbook. Beyond that, +9 damage on skill check seems high. That's 90 extra damage potentially, not counting all the tokens that allow those spells to be cast again. I guess for a Relic though that's probably not too overpowered. It could be too powerful though if a future character card design adds more skill check spells.

Arch-Mage Medallion: An extra spell box per level seems very powerful, but letting them be cast as free actions seems very broken. That is four turns where the Wizard can double-cast damage spells (in addition to any other tokens which allow two spells in a turn), which I'd guess puts the Wizard far above the damage curve. Extra spell boxes and bonus damage on spells seems more than powerful enough, the part about casting them as instants should be dropped, unless they're cast as scrolls. I'm glad it no longer incorporates the MoMM and MEC.

I like the Elfstone Shard, it's extremely powerful, essentially a stand-alone maxed out Charm of Synergy. The game has gotten a lot more powerful from the time I was amazed a token as powerful as Wil's Dragonheart Charm could be printed.

Greater Ring of Reflexes at +6 is very nice, I'd like to see a similar transmute for the other saves Rings.

I'd like to see either the Tankard of Celebration or Master Drinker's Gloves replaced by a really nice transmuted polymorph potion.