TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

I tried to run some numbers on the proposed Wizard and Barbarian legendary necklaces.

Wizard DPS w/ new necklace:
*9* native ST = 135 damage (net 108)
+4 free action spells, 1 at each level
+1 Dart as FA = 21 (net 21 + modifier)
+1 Jinn's 12dmg scroll as FA = 27 (net 27 + mod)
+1 Ray/Ray = 18 if slide is made (net 18 +mod)
+1 Lightning Storm = 20 (net 20+ mod)

108 + 21 + 27 + 18 + 20 = 194 without spell modifiers

If mod=35, then we have
108 + 21 + 27 + 18 + 20 + (4 x mod) = 334 damage


Compare to barbarian legendary - +10 dmg
Over the course of 9 rounds, the necklace will net 90 damage.
Additional Rage - 6 damage x 3 rounds of combat = 18
Assume Fury allows two crits that would not have otherwise happened - 13 av. damage wheel +63 damage modifier = 76 extra damage per fury
Total for 2 Fury = 152
Total net for barbarian necklace ~~ 260

This seems reasonable, Wizards do have some ground to make up. As it stands, that's a gap of 74 damage between the Barbarian and Wizard legendary necklaces.

The combination of Free Action spells and MEC is concerning, but I don't think it's broken as of today. Using the two in conjunction and paying 20 life kind of functions as an 'auto-crit'. It's reliable high damage output, but it does come with a hefty drawback. It reinforces the whole Glass Cannon concept which is cool.

If the Wizard is able to constantly pay 20 and 'auto-crit', that might be pretty lame, though. EDIT: can't MEC 2x in a round.

One last observation - based on the fact that Barbarians can miss, I think Wizards can (with a little work) out DPS them now. 4 free actions are built into the Legendary, and there are a few other ways to eke out a few more (RoSS comes to mind). Between those, MEC, and Charm of Spell Swapping, Wizards should be able to reliably push out **77+** damage every turn. It gets complicated after the free actions dry up, but that's when a Wizard can fall back on MEC'ing her spells.


* - I only factored 9 skill checks because one was left open to be utilized as a free-action spell.
** - note the barbarian +63 damage modifier sacrificed TEs. Wizard build was able to get to +35 spell dmg without sacrificing any TEs (only used 15 tokens, no head token i.e. no Crown of Focus equipped).

Arnold wrote: I tried to run some numbers on the proposed Wizard and Barbarian legendary necklaces.

Wizard DPS w/ new necklace:
*9* native ST = 135 damage (net 108)
+4 free action spells, 1 at each level
+1 Dart as FA = 21 (net 21 + modifier)
+1 Jinn's 12dmg scroll as FA = 27 (net 27 + mod)
+1 Ray/Ray = 18 if slide is made (net 18 +mod)
+1 Lightning Storm = 20 (net 20+ mod)

108 + 21 + 27 + 18 + 20 = 194 without spell modifiers

If mod=35, then we have
108 + 21 + 27 + 18 + 20 + (4 x mod) = 334 damage


Compare to barbarian legendary - +10 dmg
Over the course of 9 rounds, the necklace will net 90 damage.
Additional Rage - 6 damage x 3 rounds of combat = 18
Assume Fury allows two crits that would not have otherwise happened - 13 av. damage wheel +63 damage modifier = 76 extra damage per fury
Total for 2 Fury = 152
Total net for barbarian necklace ~~ 260

This seems reasonable, Wizards do have some ground to make up. As it stands, that's a gap of 74 damage between the Barbarian and Wizard legendary necklaces.

The combination of Free Action spells and MEC is concerning, but I don't think it's broken as of today. Using the two in conjunction and paying 20 life kind of functions as an 'auto-crit'. It's reliable high damage output, but it does come with a hefty drawback. It reinforces the whole Glass Cannon concept which is cool.

If the Wizard is able to constantly pay 20 and 'auto-crit', that might be pretty lame, though.

One last observation - based on the fact that Barbarians can miss, I think Wizards can (with a little work) out DPS them now. 4 free actions are built into the Legendary, and there are a few other ways to eke out a few more (RoSS comes to mind). Between those, MEC, and Charm of Spell Swapping, Wizards should be able to reliably push out **77+** damage every turn. It gets complicated after the free actions dry up, but that's when a Wizard can fall back on MEC'ing her spells.


* - I only factored 9 skill checks because one was left open to be utilized as a free-action spell.
** - note the barbarian +63 damage modifier sacrificed TEs. Wizard build was able to get to +35 spell dmg without sacrificing any TEs (only used 15 tokens, no head token i.e. no Crown of Focus equipped).

You can only mad evoker once per round.

Wizard Path discussion...

My initial reaction to this was that it is amazing. The longer I think about it, the more indifferent and slightly worried I become. The changes to the UR's in the set also play a factor into my opinion as well.

I love the concept to power up the the skill check. This feature is the epitome of class defining. The numbers are impressive as well -a newer player will certainly have their eyes light up when they see that. I know many people hate the skill checks for time concerns -that's likely changing now (I do have a couple ideas to speed them up though too). From me, this aspect gets an A+ for flavor and power.

It does seem a bit strange that 1st level spells are the strongest single target spells now with this design. Current phrasing could also lead to a monotonous play style of casting Rare 12pt damage scrolls relentlessly; the Charm of Power especially adds to that strategy. I think a lot of us view our big splashy spells as being able to rain down hellfire; however, this enables a skill tested LVL1 Burning Hands to out perform the LVL 3 Fireball/Lightning Storm.... weird, not bad, just weird.

Another anomaly is the Medallion of Mystic Mouth: a Human Wizard with MoMM still has consumable wands, but does equal damage as this relic (more so if they have a Fluorite Cube sitting around [yes I know 2 UR should be on par with a relic]). The wand part isn't necessarily bad either, just observing.

The jump to the Legendary is juicy though. I can definitely get behind this. The FA spells and bonus combined make you feel like you can shatter the world if used the right way.

The addition that would make me love this iteration is if all spells had a way to get the bonus (probably too good though). I would prefer to see something that isn't straight +Focus, but that is an option to make the damage unavailable to the MEC. Sliding Spells are probably not going to happen nearly as often when they have the chance to miss and are not as powerful (despite being higher levels) compared to the Spellbook Rare Scrolls. Is it worth considering making this effect a keyword (something like Planar Proficiency) that way it can easily be errata'd if need be? (We already know there will be "tweak"s coming to others, might behoove us to consider setting ourselves up for success)

Really not a fan of Mad Evoker's getting an indirect boost. This version will just further that divide and separate the Wizards into the "Haves" and "Have Nots" instead of promote options. I really hope we can phrase this version in such a fashion as to not give the Evoker's an even wider damage gap. If the current phrasing remains, then I think a reprint/revisit to the MEC (and possibly even Cabal set) should follow this shortly.

I'm still in love with the revision that gave us the 4 FA each at relic and Legendary. It affected every spell level, packed a punch, and had a nifty fun effect at the top tier. Throw a limit on the number of times/room the relic can trigger that if need be. That is just my opinion though.

I would certainly still craft this version, and this relic will 100% be my volunteer pick. These do not excite me at much as the 2nd iteration, but they're still very cool and strong. My main concern is that it may enable MEC, Charm of Power, and the Cabal set too much; I just want us to have room to expand to cool ideas/toys/things/creatures/familiars in the future as well. Overall I really like this design.

If this version is indeed the will of the Cabal, then I will rally behind it.

A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard without the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard with the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

Yeah , way, way too much damage. We shouldn’t be talking about how a wizard just shot past a 100% crit rate Barbarian in total damage. Spells have No chance to miss, no penalty for flying monster, and aren’t even going to be threatened to run out now with the proposed charm of power.

Charm of Power would bump human Wizard up 9 more damage in the 5th round.

Bardsong of +4 damage could be doubled for human Wizard vs Barbarian for another 20 more damage over 5 rounds.

These close the gap easily.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: I'm still generally in favor of this revised relic/legendary, but as I continue to look at it, unless all spells gain a ST, there are no 2nd or 3rd level spells that benefit from this. And unless you equip MEC, you can't reap the maximum benefits. It seems like maybe the enhanced ST damage should be considered bonus damage (not base) and apply to all spells cast. That lowers the overall damage a bit, but would generally equalize the gain across all players and spells.

Absolutely disagree with changing the core rules of the game to retroactively nerf a token in order to not make a legendary token as powerful. That's a terrible decision

Sorry if its worded poorly, but this suggestion doesn't change a single rule of the game and doesn't nerf a single token. It simply suggests that the relic and legendary bonus is listed as bonus damage instead of ST damage. bonus and base damage would still be handled exactly per the rules. Nor is MEC nerfed. It still affects base damage. The suggestion just keeps MEC at its current power level rather than allow users of an OOP token to gain another +12 damage from its use (total of +23 per round for a magic missile). The net effect is to leave all rules (core and otherwise) exactly as they are and keep MEC from more than doubling the damage some already consider too powerful.

I think the bad decision is to go forward with a token design that flips level 0 and 1 spells to the top of the damage list.

Trust me, if this goes forward as is, I won't be too disappointed, I use MEC to gain 6 damage on level 0 spells. I'm just trying to point out the core changes being done (intentionally or inadvertently) to the game mechanics.

Endgame wrote:

edwin wrote: A free action spell at each level plus one from Ring of Spell Storing.

Legendary allows skill test for spells cast
out of spell charm.

Human Wizard uses Charm of Spell Swapping to covert all higher level spells down to 1st level damage spells with exception of Lightning Storm.

The human Wizard now has nine 1st level damaging spells to cast in additional to four 1st level free action spells (Charm of Spell Swapping and Ring of Spell Storing).

For illustration purposes let’s assume the human Wizard is +35 to spell damage.

Round 1: 1st spell used to cast Scroll of Venom Strike as a spell and successfully passing the skill test gives 27 damage plus spell bonus. Free action spell is a duplicate of this. One of these two can have their base damage plus skill test damage doubled. Using MEC on one of the two spells provides for a total damage to a single target of 89+62 = 151

Round 2: Duplicate of Round 1. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 3: Duplicate of Round 2. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 4: Duplicate of Round 3. Another 151 damage to a single target.

Round 5: Cast one Scoll of Venom Strike as a spell and now you cast a zero level spell that does 18 damage if you pass the skill test plus spell damage. Using MEC on the Venom Strike provides for a total damage to a single target of 89 + 53 = 142 damage to a single target.

So after 5 rounds the human Wizard does a total of 746 damage to a single target. Not too shabby.

If you do not have the MEC this drops to 124 damage for round 1 thru 4 and 115 damage in round 5. This totals up to 611 damage to a single target.
**********************
Now let’s compare to Trent’s Barbarian, IIRC, who has +60 damage on a hit add in Greater Rage and you get +66. Using the Death Cleaver gives an average weapon damage of 11 per hit. So without any critical you get 77 damage per round. Let’s say Trent is an awesome slider and hit a 20 each round. This gives 154 damage per round.

So after 5 rounds Trent’s Barbarian does a total of 770 damage to a single target barely edging out the human Wizard with a MEC and outdistancing the human Wizard without an MEC.

Now if we assumed Trent gets a crit 20% of the time. This drops the total damage to 452 damage to a single target falling way short of the human Wizard with the MEC and getting left in the dust of the human Wizard with the MEC..

Yeah , way, way too much damage. We shouldn’t be talking about how a wizard just shot past a 100% crit rate Barbarian in total damage. Spells have No chance to miss, no penalty for flying monster, and aren’t even going to be threatened to run out now with the proposed charm of power.

At that point with that build is the wizard dead without any help after cutting 4 times.

50 points of cutting may be enough or not. Paladin sacrifice, Cleric Heal, Druid Heal, Bard Heal, Ranger Heal, Gem crushed, etc will all prevent that.

In all fairness smackdown or lazlo with their artifacts running a Barbarian and 100% crits on slides can eek ahead of the human Wizard.

Very cool human Wizard that can nearly match artifact level power damage.

edwin wrote: In all fairness smackdown or lazlo with their artifacts running a Barbarian and 100% crits on slides can eek ahead of the human Wizard.

Very cool human Wizard that can nearly match artifact level power damage.

I've never seen a Barbarian crit 100% of the time.

I've mostly seen Barbarians channel their class a bit too much and hit the back bumper more often than crit.

Comparing to Epic level Ranger build under MasterEds Ranger build thread.

Melee equipping two Asher’s and +28 damage.

Let’s say both Asher’s are slid to critical in each of 5 consecutive rounds.

Asher’s has an average damage wheel of 11 if rounding up.

So a single critical does 78 damage with two per round doing 156 damage.

After five rounds this would 780 damage just eeking out the human Wizard with an MEC.