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TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #145

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

Are the Skill Test Bonus amounts on Relic Mage Medallion and Slithigarrette's Arch-Mage Medallion doubled when using Mad Evoker's Charm?

E.g. Level 0 Fire Dart deals 3 + skill test. With the Legendary Wizard this is 3+15 = 18. If MeC is used on this spell is the base damage 36 (which is then modified by the Wizard's Spell damage modifier)?


Per the official wording on Mad Evoker's Charm yes.


I'm asking for a ruling as,

a. It's not 100% clear to me that TPTB considered MeC interactions (they probably did)

b. I want it documented either way so there's no confusion - as this is the first effect that modifies the value of a skill test bonus.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #146

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

Are the Skill Test Bonus amounts on Relic Mage Medallion and Slithigarrette's Arch-Mage Medallion doubled when using Mad Evoker's Charm?

E.g. Level 0 Fire Dart deals 3 + skill test. With the Legendary Wizard this is 3+15 = 18. If MeC is used on this spell is the base damage 36 (which is then modified by the Wizard's Spell damage modifier)?


Per the official wording on Mad Evoker's Charm yes.


I'm asking for a ruling as,

a. It's not 100% clear to me that TPTB considered MeC interactions (they probably did)

b. I want it documented either way so there's no confusion - as this is the first effect that modifies the value of a skill test bonus.


Understandable requesting an official word from Jeff. I didn't realize that was your intent.

Definitely a good thing to ask for during the design process so it can be addressed if needed.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #147

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: My damage calculations were clearly off on comparing it vs wands. I have had more negative experiences, and I am a player who loves doing the Skill Tests even after having these negative experiences!

I do not own MEC, MEC is not a 2021 PYP, I am treating the legendary more as a stand alone token that shouldn’t need other tokens to buff it (especially a Ring of Sacrifice style token that deals 40 damage to self over the course of a dungeon, everyone has made it clear a token dealing that much damage is clearly bad). And I don’t personally own MEC or have a ton of interest in dealing myself that much damage when I am already having a tougher time staying alive. (I run in a group with an Elf Wizard, we cant both be guarded every round.)


On a swap from MoMM to the Relic necklace, without the use of MEC currently

Jinn's Spellbook - Lightning Bolt scroll for 12 damage base + 12 damage on successful spell check = 24+damage bonus

Level 1 Spell Magic Missile for 8 damage base + 8 from Medallion of Mystic Mouth + 3 from successful spell check = 19+spell damage bonus at the cost of a rare wand every room

Jinn's Spellbook - Lightning Bolt scroll for 12 damage base + 8 from Medallion of Mystic Mouth + 3 from successful spell check = 23+spell damage bonus at the cost of a rare wand every room

In all 3 scenerios you end up ahead in damage when using the Relic by at least 1 damage.

Purely swapping the MoMM for the Relic necklace without changing any other equips is a damage bonus of 5 and the ability to swap the elemental type of your attack to potentially deal additional damage (currently only available via the circlet/crown of elemental mastery)

+1 damage to go from 2 URs to a Relic feels like a really small upgrade. I get it saves the rare wand which is a really nice upgrade for someone like me in specific who hates consumables (which is why I don’t use MoMM and never will), but for the people who do use consumables this is such a small upgrade for such a high resource investment. And it is going to decrease their options for damage typing unless they pair the relic with Crown/Circlet of Elemental Mastery (which means no Crown of Focus, which means 1 less spell damage. Or no Crown of Expertise), so it feels like a lateral move to go from those 2 URs to this Relic and the Relic should really feel like more of a vertical move. Maybe make the relic version +12 base damage on all spells (regardless of skill check or slide, and skill check still boosts +3 normally) and then it is just a tiny bit better and starts to be enough extra damage where I would see that as an upgrade over the 2 URs (like going from a +2 Focus UR to a +3 Focus Relic).
I play Wizard.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #148

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Mage Medallion Relic could be updated to say

+9 to base damage on successful skill check or spell slide

Legendary then saying

+12 to base damage on successful skill check or spell slide

At that point the only spells that wouldn't gain the benefit are the AoE 3rd level spell

That puts all slide spells above all skill check spells. The only spells that don't benefit are AoE spells that still win on any fight with 2+ enemies.


I could get behind this. Still rather see the +12 / +15 at that point though.

(My lengthy analysis still to come)
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #149

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Mage Medallion Relic could be updated to say

+9 to base damage on successful skill check or spell slide

Legendary then saying

+12 to base damage on successful skill check or spell slide

At that point the only spells that wouldn't gain the benefit are the AoE 3rd level spell

That puts all slide spells above all skill check spells. The only spells that don't benefit are AoE spells that still win on any fight with 2+ enemies.


I could get behind this. Still rather see the +12 / +15 at that point though.

(My lengthy analysis still to come)


+9/+12 equals the numbers on the current tokens. It's 3+9=12 and 3+12=15
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #150

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: My damage calculations were clearly off on comparing it vs wands. I have had more negative experiences, and I am a player who loves doing the Skill Tests even after having these negative experiences!

I do not own MEC, MEC is not a 2021 PYP, I am treating the legendary more as a stand alone token that shouldn’t need other tokens to buff it (especially a Ring of Sacrifice style token that deals 40 damage to self over the course of a dungeon, everyone has made it clear a token dealing that much damage is clearly bad). And I don’t personally own MEC or have a ton of interest in dealing myself that much damage when I am already having a tougher time staying alive. (I run in a group with an Elf Wizard, we cant both be guarded every round.)


On a swap from MoMM to the Relic necklace, without the use of MEC currently

Jinn's Spellbook - Lightning Bolt scroll for 12 damage base + 12 damage on successful spell check = 24+damage bonus

Level 1 Spell Magic Missile for 8 damage base + 8 from Medallion of Mystic Mouth + 3 from successful spell check = 19+spell damage bonus at the cost of a rare wand every room

Jinn's Spellbook - Lightning Bolt scroll for 12 damage base + 8 from Medallion of Mystic Mouth + 3 from successful spell check = 23+spell damage bonus at the cost of a rare wand every room

In all 3 scenerios you end up ahead in damage when using the Relic by at least 1 damage.

Purely swapping the MoMM for the Relic necklace without changing any other equips is a damage bonus of 5 and the ability to swap the elemental type of your attack to potentially deal additional damage (currently only available via the circlet/crown of elemental mastery)

+1 damage to go from 2 URs to a Relic feels like a really small upgrade. I get it saves the rare wand which is a really nice upgrade for someone like me in specific who hates consumables (which is why I don’t use MoMM and never will), but for the people who do use consumables this is such a small upgrade for such a high resource investment. And it is going to decrease their options for damage typing unless they pair the relic with Crown/Circlet of Elemental Mastery (which means no Crown of Focus, which means 1 less spell damage. Or no Crown of Expertise), so it feels like a lateral move to go from those 2 URs to this Relic and the Relic should really feel like more of a vertical move. Maybe make the relic version +12 base damage on all spells (regardless of skill check or slide, and skill check still boosts +3 normally) and then it is just a tiny bit better and starts to be enough extra damage where I would see that as an upgrade over the 2 URs (like going from a +2 Focus UR to a +3 Focus Relic).


I'm trying to follow your numbers but unfortunately I just cant.

Without the Relic you are at 19 damage and costs a wand per room.

With the Relic alone you are at 24 damage at no cost of a wand and you have the ability to slot in at least 4 damage scrolls at 12 damage each.

that's a 5 damage increase for swapping only the necklace and equipping 1 rare scroll which will be reprinted in 2021. AND that removes the requirement to burn 3 wands every run. That seems like a solidly strong upgrade?
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #151

Before we got this round of tokens, Wizards were trying to see if they could coalesce around one design for the Legendary.

We conducted a survey of the two prior revisions of the design (minus Familiar), and 8 various other proposals.

The idea was to find if there was a hidden consensus - e.g. even if design D1 is Abe's 3rd choice and Betty's 5th choice - it might still be universally preferred to design D2.





Proposals considered:

Here are the 10 designs considered:

All designs start with and include: Jinn's Spellbook, and +1 spell at each spell level castable as a free action. This was the prior relic through a few iterations.

#01 - Add MMM and MeC (prior proposal)

#02 - Add +1 additional spell of each level, castable as a free action (two proposals ago, minus familiar)

#03 - Add +1 additional spell of each level, castable as a free action. May double all spell damage in round 1/room. May not equip MeC

#04 - Add +1 additional spell of each level. Add cast any spell as a free action 2/room. Add double all spell damage for round 2/game

#05 - Add +1 additional spell of each level. Add cast any spell as a free action 2/room. Add slid spells deal double damage on 19+

#06 - Add +1 additional spell of each level. Add cast any spell as a free action 2/room. Add Wands are not consumed.

#07 - Add MeC and 2 additional charm slots

#08 - Add MeC and you can cast Level 0 spells as a free action (Or maybe Level 1 instead of Level 0, or perhaps both - TBTP decide)

#09 - Add MeC and you may cast a spell, read a scroll, or use a wand as a free action (x/game) - where x is around 5

#10 - Add MMM. Add both of: Damage wands are not consumed, and, you may choose to turn in a wand at end of room to add spell damage bonus to wands for that room

Each of these 10 items were force ranked from 1st choice, 2nd choice, ... 10th choice by 12 respondents.




Results:

Average choice number, median choice number, best choice number, worst choice number for proposal:

P# Avg Med Best Worst
#01	7.9	9    3  10
#02	3.9	4    1   8
#03	3.9	3.5  1   9
#04	3.8	2.5  1   9
#05	5.1	4.5  2  10
#06	5.3	5    2   9
#07	8.2	8.5  4  10
#08	5.7	6    3   8
#09	6.0	6.5  1   8
#10	5.3	6    1  10




Raw votes by proposal number:
Pr#	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th 7th 8th 9th 10th
#01	0	0	2	0	0	1   1   0   4   4
#02	2	1	0	6	1	1   0   1   0   0
#03	2	1	3	3	1	0   0   1   1   0
#04	2	4	2	0	1	0   1   0   2   0
#05	0	3	2	1	1	1   2   0   0   2
#06	0	2	1	1	3	2   0   2   1   0
#07	0	0	0	1	1	0   1   3   2   4
#08	0	0	2	0	3	3   3   1   0   0
#09	1	1	0	0	0	4   3   3   0   0
#10	5	0	0	0	1	0   1   1   2   2




Analysis:

Proposal #04:
Add +1 additional spell of each level. Add cast any spell as a free action 2/room. Add double all spell damage for round 2/game

Had the highest average, and the highest median scores. 1/2 of respondents put this as 1st or 2nd/ choice. 2/3rds of respondents put this as their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice.




Everyone who responded preferred:

#02 - Add +1 additional spell of each level, castable as a free action (two proposals ago, minus familiar)
Over:
#01 - Add MMM and MeC (prior proposal)

All but one person preferred:
#02 - Add +1 additional spell of each level, castable as a free action (two proposals ago, minus familiar)
Over:
#07 Add MeC and 2 additional charm slots

Proposal #02 had the lowest negative sentiment, with only 2 people rating it 6th choice or lower, and no one rating it 10th.




Proposal #10 garnered the most 1st choice votes, with 5 of 12 people preferring it as their first choice:

#10 - Add MMM. Add both of: Damage wands are not consumed, and, you may choose to turn in a wand at end of room to add spell damage bonus to wands for that room

It was divisive, with 2 people voting it 9th, and 2 people 10th.




Conclusion:

It was hoped for this would reveal some sort of consensus, or at least establish a few options that were always preferable to the rest.

This was not the case - other than that Proposal #2 was always preferred over Proposal #1.

Hopefully TPTB or other readers find this interesting.

Good luck to us all ;)
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #152

But the truly hard question Matthew - How do you feel about the design changes this iteration for the Wizard. The Charm of Power, the Jinn's book charm and the changes to the relic/legendary?
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #153

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: But the truly hard question Matthew - How do you feel about the design changes this iteration for the Wizard. The Charm of Power, the Jinn's book charm and the changes to the relic/legendary?


Thanks for asking!

I'm feeling better than I did when I first saw it.

Things I like:

1. Lots of damage.

2. Shakes up my build a lot. (I'll probably drop Crown of Expertise for the rare focus hat, for instance).

3. Complex tactical play - have to manage spells, line up 2 things to do a turn, sequence stuff, beg the cleric for those sweet free action heals, etc..

Things I don't like:

1. Huge gulf between MeC users and not.

2. Large gulf between Cabal Set users and not:
Without cabal set - legendary gives 4 rounds of free action spells
With cabal set add another based on room count - could be 3 or 4
Ring of Spell storing gives you 1 more
So you could be dual casting anywhere from 4 to 9 rounds with this token - but 3-4 of those come from a super out of print set bonus with otherwise not-very-good effects clogging up very desirable slots. (e.g. lose +2 Ioun or Charm, lose 3 damage or a ring in hands, lose another chamr).

3. I do not have a lot of similar-ish build options any more. My choices are Damage with MeC and Cabal, or not damage without. It's not longer a close call between MMM/Cabal depending on number of rounds/rooms etc.. Once I commit to MeC and Cabal there is very little to fiddle with. It's down to "which of Arcane Belt or Belt of Orion, and which of Charm of Spell Swapping, Glory, or Power do I drop if I go with Arcane Belt."

4. To get the damage, you have to go ALL IN on Wizard charms pretty much:
You need Cabal set, so you can't use Charm bracelets. You can't use charm Necklace.

I don't see a way to fit Charm of Brooching or Questors in this build, which I like (especially Brooching).


I will probably tone down my build, stop going for max damage. Maybe get uncommon scroll Vanish and figure out a way to cast that every round, and cast Hell Shout twice on the first round to give the monster -4 to hit for everyone else.

If there is anything like consensus - or even majority on this one - I say let's ship it (once it's confirmed MeC doubles the skill check bonus).

I wouldn't say no to something whimsical on the Legendary - I liked the idea of a 1 or 2/game ability to target another willing player with a "caster only" scroll. Maybe "knock" or "detect secret doors" can open the rogue box if there is no rogue in the party for the clue only.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #154

I'm probably keeping my Crown of Expertise. I don't have a Ring of Spell Storing. I do run the Arcane set. So that's 2 additional free action spells.

Given the design on this iteration I will likely hunt down a RoSS to get free spell #7.

Losing a charm slot for the Charm of Power but that's worth it considering it's another L1 spell to elongate my list and allows me to run Alertness if Elf Wizard is open.

I love the idea of having 10 scrolls but I don't think I can give up two charm slots currently. It's just a hard selection
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #155

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'm probably keeping my Crown of Expertise. I don't have a Ring of Spell Storing. I do run the Arcane set. So that's 2 additional free action spells.

Given the design on this iteration I will likely hunt down a RoSS to get free spell #7.

Losing a charm slot for the Charm of Power but that's worth it considering it's another L1 spell to elongate my list and allows me to run Alertness if Elf Wizard is open.

I love the idea of having 10 scrolls but I don't think I can give up two charm slots currently. It's just a hard selection


Cabal set?

Arcane set doesn't grant free action spells?

I thought of another downside for this with me - top end damage will be very monotonous. You'll just hammer an 12 point level 1 spell every round - except for the rounds you do it twice.

Moving up to L2/3 will cost you a lot of damage on the skill test, so you'll spell swap / charm of power into 12 base point L1 spells all day long.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #156

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'm probably keeping my Crown of Expertise. I don't have a Ring of Spell Storing. I do run the Arcane set. So that's 2 additional free action spells.

Given the design on this iteration I will likely hunt down a RoSS to get free spell #7.

Losing a charm slot for the Charm of Power but that's worth it considering it's another L1 spell to elongate my list and allows me to run Alertness if Elf Wizard is open.

I love the idea of having 10 scrolls but I don't think I can give up two charm slots currently. It's just a hard selection


Cabal set?

Arcane set doesn't grant free action spells?

I thought of another downside for this with me - top end damage will be very monotonous. You'll just hammer an 12 point level 1 spell every round - except for the rounds you do it twice.

Moving up to L2/3 will cost you a lot of damage on the skill test, so you'll spell swap / charm of power into 12 base point L1 spells all day long.


Forgot the Arcane was just a free level 2 not a free action one.

Cabal set is blah. Not my thing. Too many useless tokens for the effect.


My hope is that Jeff accepts the redesign I suggested. Changing the text to increase base damage by +9 on a successful spell check OR spell slide.

That way slide spells stay on top, it stays MEC compatible. It stays viable for sliders or planar testers and generally keeps the expected power on a spell by spell basis in the spell levels.

Seems like a clean option to make everything good.
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