TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

Harlax wrote:

Timmy Rink wrote: It's hard to be mad at the fighter relic with all those boosted stats but it doesn't feel right to me. The legendary is just getting weird. Here's what I came up with that maybe doesn't fix everything but gets closer to something special:

Relic:
+6 Strength
+2 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
Critical on 19-20
Melee Shield AC adds to Reflex Saves

Legendary:
Grants all AoNM powers
Critical on 18-20
If melee weapon is a critical hit and highest damage on token faces damage dot, deal double damage on same or one other target (this could be worded much better)

This way it keeps fighters doing what fighters do best, slide pucks, and not have to worry about anything else.

That’s fairly close to iterations in early discussions. The expanded crit was a casualty before it ever hit the General forums. STR started at +8 and was lowered to 7.

The +3 to Dex is essential to users of Thors and we will fight (pun intended) hard for that. With the abilities as they are we will fight (pun!) for the stats.

+3 dex would be ideal, the con can stay low. HP is just another resource we spend in the dungeon and while having a larger pool can be beneficial, I would rather a solid offense than defense .

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

Are the Skill Test Bonus amounts on Relic Mage Medallion and Slithigarrette's Arch-Mage Medallion doubled when using Mad Evoker's Charm?

E.g. Level 0 Fire Dart deals 3 + skill test. With the Legendary Wizard this is 3+15 = 18. If MeC is used on this spell is the base damage 36 (which is then modified by the Wizard's Spell damage modifier)?

Per the official wording on Mad Evoker's Charm yes.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: For Fighter, I love everyone saying “Whirlwind doesn’t add a lot of damage because there aren’t many fights with multiple targets.” Welcome to being a Wizard, we are constantly told our potential damage is so high because of our multi-target spells. Yes, on paper the potential “could be huge”, in practice it never works out and you feel like everyone is over-calculating your contribution. Maybe now you’ll have more sympathy for Wizards saying Fireball doesn’t actually mean they are dealing tons of damage?

I am not a huge fan of the Fighters fighting after death. It feels like it steps on Barbarians and doesn’t fit the class. It feels like it will come up too infrequently.

I am no Fighter, but I would expect them to enjoy wider crit ranges, higher crit multipliers, or more slide fixing? Maybe +reslides, +1 to crit range, +1 to crit multiplier, or gain a form of “Impale” (leave puck on table in same spot facing same direction and deal that much damage next round if you still hit, maybe only once per room).

I don't think we need to add another keyword to the Fighter legendary, Whirlwind is plenty enough. Add some extra uses of reslide/taunt, add a crit extender and call it a day.

The previous iteration of the fighter legendary was almost flawless, I would rather go back to that but with expanded crit range to 18-20 so we can be just a single step behind rogues.

I would like to propose two ideas.

1. Battle master - The fighter as a master tactician and a veteran of hundreds of battles can use their battle awareness to change the tide of battle. After everyone has slid but before damage has been calculated, they can put their necklace upside down in a empty puck and slide it to effect the battle around them.

The player can “CHOOSE” to do this. This Can help others that may have missed or threw light on a slow board. Fighters love to slide and can help the team. It’s easy on the dm because it’s obvious and wouldn’t be counted for damage itself. More often than naught this ability will help others as the fighter has a great +to hit anyway.


2. Change whirlwind to a +X / game and instead allow the fighter to do 1.5X dmg to a single target as they spin on it or if there is two targets in melee it hits both for normal damage in a combat.

This will allow the fighter to “CHOOSE” when to use it and will still provide something if there is no multi mob encounters designed for that adventure.


Both options provide player choice and agency.

I really believe in option 1. I know it’s probably too similar to the familiars that’s were initially planned this season but this could not be more thematically a fighter concept.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: As someone who loves doing the Skill Tests, I appreciate the idea of this pass on the Wizard tokens. But there are so many spells that don’t use the Skill Test and this doesn’t let me swap to them (and the relic doesn’t even give me more uses of the skill test spells). I also get that major frustration of the Skill Tests taking up time. I have definitely had DMs refuse to give me a Skill Test and say “you passed” when they saw our party was in a time crunch but I cast a spell and was standing by the Planar Board. I think they’ll be less inclined to do that now and equipping this Relic/Legendary will turn into “and you make your party fail a combat”, which is a very negative play experience. Please reconsider forcing negative play experiences on high value tokens.

I have never lost a combat caused by the extra time required to do a planar skill check.
I have lost many combats to players not sliding and moving quickly enough to get a third round of combat in.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: The relic feels like such a minor upgrade to the UR and switches it to a much more restrictive slot in the process. It really doesn’t feel worth it. I think it really needs the extra spell boxes added back in or an ability to swap spells for same level or lower, to give greater access to and interaction with that Skill Test bonus. This token just feels so weak for the power level it should be at, especially in comparison to other Class Relics. Keeping in mind too the alternative option is MoMM+Jinn’s (2 URs and 1 extra charm slot) instead of this large token investment, the difference is this relic nets 4 damage, saves a consumable, and costs the party time. That doesn’t seem like the upgrade I would expect in a Class Relic. (And I am coming from the perspective of not liking MoMM as it is)

The relic is +9 damage base if you make the skill check versus +8(ish?) from the MoMM at the cost of 1 rare wand per room. This is purely a damage upgrade over the MoMM due to it not costing physical resources.

If you have Mad Evoker this goes to +18 damage, a large upgrade over MoMM, also without costing wands.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: The Class Legendary is +3 total spells as free actions which is nice but not huge, Jinn’s which is nice to save a charm slot, and again an effect that says “wizard takes up more combat time than other classes” which is a nice damage boost but might make some parties mad. I would consider making this more than the last pass in public, I would never choose this over the L&L passes with Familiars removed (removed or possibly replaced with just +X Focus, or slide an empty puck if sliding was really necessary, or something small). I would certainly never just choose the Wizard Relic and be happy I had that.

The legendary is 4 additional spells. At least two of which are planar checks and net +15 damage on a success. Allowing +30 damage per round of combat for at least 2 rounds, 4 if you spell swap the L2 L3 to ones with a spell check.

The UR also gives access to a spell check 14 damage single target spell which alone is a 4dps boost over magic missile and jumps to 26+spell damage bonus on the relic necklace.

You are saying a lot how planar skill checks cost the party so much time but I've never seen that to be the case. You have apparently had a much more negative experience taking planar checks than I have

I love that the Mage Medallion makes skill tests worth it again for Wizards. But to keep things simpler is it really necessary to bump that to +15 at the Legendary, making three different bonuses (+3 or +12 or +15)? I think the Legendary powers (one extra spell at each level PLUS it is a free action) are already pretty solid. If you need a bit more toss in some +DEX perhaps?

Amulet of Noble Might is too strong I think. The standard for neck URs is +6 or +7 to stats. This is a Relic and it jumps to +14 to stats. That's a big jump. Consider that for a weapon UR -> Relic is just +1 to hit and +1 to damage. Moonhide Robe to Starhide robe was +5 to +10 so a +5 increase (and part of that is a less desirable stat).

On the other hand, the jump from Amulet of Noble Might to Viv's Amulet of Noble Might doesn't seem very worth it. My suggestion would be to drop +4 CON from the relic and add +4 CON to the Legendary.

Kirk Bauer wrote: On the other hand, the jump from Amulet of Noble Might to Viv's Amulet of Noble Might doesn't seem very worth it. My suggestion would be to drop +4 CON from the relic and add +4 CON to the Legendary.

I could live with that.

Mage Medallion Relic could be updated to say

+9 to base damage on successful skill check or spell slide

Legendary then saying

+12 to base damage on successful skill check or spell slide

At that point the only spells that wouldn't gain the benefit are the AoE 3rd level spell

I think that would also put slide spells back in position as the top damage dealers for Wizards while still preserving the bonus for a successful spell check.

win/win wizards?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: As someone who loves doing the Skill Tests, I appreciate the idea of this pass on the Wizard tokens. But there are so many spells that don’t use the Skill Test and this doesn’t let me swap to them (and the relic doesn’t even give me more uses of the skill test spells). I also get that major frustration of the Skill Tests taking up time. I have definitely had DMs refuse to give me a Skill Test and say “you passed” when they saw our party was in a time crunch but I cast a spell and was standing by the Planar Board. I think they’ll be less inclined to do that now and equipping this Relic/Legendary will turn into “and you make your party fail a combat”, which is a very negative play experience. Please reconsider forcing negative play experiences on high value tokens.

I have never lost a combat caused by the extra time required to do a planar skill check.
I have lost many combats to players not sliding and moving quickly enough to get a third round of combat in.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: The relic feels like such a minor upgrade to the UR and switches it to a much more restrictive slot in the process. It really doesn’t feel worth it. I think it really needs the extra spell boxes added back in or an ability to swap spells for same level or lower, to give greater access to and interaction with that Skill Test bonus. This token just feels so weak for the power level it should be at, especially in comparison to other Class Relics. Keeping in mind too the alternative option is MoMM+Jinn’s (2 URs and 1 extra charm slot) instead of this large token investment, the difference is this relic nets 4 damage, saves a consumable, and costs the party time. That doesn’t seem like the upgrade I would expect in a Class Relic. (And I am coming from the perspective of not liking MoMM as it is)

The relic is +9 damage base if you make the skill check versus +8(ish?) from the MoMM at the cost of 1 rare wand per room. This is purely a damage upgrade over the MoMM due to it not costing physical resources.

If you have Mad Evoker this goes to +18 damage, a large upgrade over MoMM, also without costing wands.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: The Class Legendary is +3 total spells as free actions which is nice but not huge, Jinn’s which is nice to save a charm slot, and again an effect that says “wizard takes up more combat time than other classes” which is a nice damage boost but might make some parties mad. I would consider making this more than the last pass in public, I would never choose this over the L&L passes with Familiars removed (removed or possibly replaced with just +X Focus, or slide an empty puck if sliding was really necessary, or something small). I would certainly never just choose the Wizard Relic and be happy I had that.

The legendary is 4 additional spells. At least two of which are planar checks and net +15 damage on a success. Allowing +30 damage per round of combat for at least 2 rounds, 4 if you spell swap the L2 L3 to ones with a spell check.

The UR also gives access to a spell check 14 damage single target spell which alone is a 4dps boost over magic missile and jumps to 26+spell damage bonus on the relic necklace.

You are saying a lot how planar skill checks cost the party so much time but I've never seen that to be the case. You have apparently had a much more negative experience taking planar checks than I have

My damage calculations were clearly off on comparing it vs wands. I have had more negative experiences, and I am a player who loves doing the Skill Tests even after having these negative experiences!

I do not own MEC, MEC is not a 2021 PYP, I am treating the legendary more as a stand alone token that shouldn’t need other tokens to buff it (especially a Ring of Sacrifice style token that deals 40 damage to self over the course of a dungeon, everyone has made it clear a token dealing that much damage is clearly bad). And I don’t personally own MEC or have a ton of interest in dealing myself that much damage when I am already having a tougher time staying alive. (I run in a group with an Elf Wizard, we cant both be guarded every round.)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: I'm still generally in favor of this revised relic/legendary, but as I continue to look at it, unless all spells gain a ST, there are no 2nd or 3rd level spells that benefit from this. And unless you equip MEC, you can't reap the maximum benefits. It seems like maybe the enhanced ST damage should be considered bonus damage (not base) and apply to all spells cast. That lowers the overall damage a bit, but would generally equalize the gain across all players and spells.

Absolutely disagree with changing the core rules of the game to retroactively nerf a token in order to not make a legendary token as powerful. That's a terrible decision

I think Dave is simply proposing an alternate design

1. You may perfom a skill test when casting any spell.
2. Whenever you pass a skill test, gain +9 (+12 at legendary) bonus damage added onto whatever the spell result was with skill test.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: My damage calculations were clearly off on comparing it vs wands. I have had more negative experiences, and I am a player who loves doing the Skill Tests even after having these negative experiences!

I do not own MEC, MEC is not a 2021 PYP, I am treating the legendary more as a stand alone token that shouldn’t need other tokens to buff it (especially a Ring of Sacrifice style token that deals 40 damage to self over the course of a dungeon, everyone has made it clear a token dealing that much damage is clearly bad). And I don’t personally own MEC or have a ton of interest in dealing myself that much damage when I am already having a tougher time staying alive. (I run in a group with an Elf Wizard, we cant both be guarded every round.)

On a swap from MoMM to the Relic necklace, without the use of MEC currently

Jinn's Spellbook - Lightning Bolt scroll for 12 damage base + 12 damage on successful spell check = 24+damage bonus

Level 1 Spell Magic Missile for 8 damage base + 8 from Medallion of Mystic Mouth + 3 from successful spell check = 19+spell damage bonus at the cost of a rare wand every room

Jinn's Spellbook - Lightning Bolt scroll for 12 damage base + 8 from Medallion of Mystic Mouth + 3 from successful spell check = 23+spell damage bonus at the cost of a rare wand every room

In all 3 scenerios you end up ahead in damage when using the Relic by at least 1 damage.

Purely swapping the MoMM for the Relic necklace without changing any other equips is a damage bonus of 5 and the ability to swap the elemental type of your attack to potentially deal additional damage (currently only available via the circlet/crown of elemental mastery)

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: I'm still generally in favor of this revised relic/legendary, but as I continue to look at it, unless all spells gain a ST, there are no 2nd or 3rd level spells that benefit from this. And unless you equip MEC, you can't reap the maximum benefits. It seems like maybe the enhanced ST damage should be considered bonus damage (not base) and apply to all spells cast. That lowers the overall damage a bit, but would generally equalize the gain across all players and spells.

Absolutely disagree with changing the core rules of the game to retroactively nerf a token in order to not make a legendary token as powerful. That's a terrible decision

I think Dave is simply proposing an alternate design

1. You may perfom a skill test when casting any spell.
2. Whenever you pass a skill test, gain +9 (+12 at legendary) bonus damage added onto whatever the spell result was with skill test.

his suggestion costs MEC users 9 to 12 damage per spell. It could much more fairly be applied as I mentioned above

Mage Medallion Relic could be updated to say

+9 to base damage on successful skill check or spell slide

Legendary then saying

+12 to base damage on successful skill check or spell slide

At that point the only spells that wouldn't gain the benefit are the AoE 3rd level spell

That puts all slide spells above all skill check spells. The only spells that don't benefit are AoE spells that still win on any fight with 2+ enemies.