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TOPIC: 2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two

2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #121

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:
But mostly ignore this ability. Yep, an ability on a legendary that can be mostly ignored.


Surely you are aware that having a "mostly ignorable abilities" is a hallmark of class legendary design?

Or do you see a lot of polymorphing Druids who use weaker potions, Rangers using scrolls and animal friends, and rolled 1-3 on Initiative for Bards to bounce?

Not everything has to go to the bottom line - sometimes it can be flavor.


That’s the problem the legendary is all flavor and little substance over the relic at this time. There is only 2 abilities on that token over the relic and at this current time have low percentage chances of happening.

There are already a ton of reviving / enduring items out there.

If there are a majority of fighters that share your opinion please speak out.

This token provides no player agency or decisions to make. There is no strategy involved. Where is the motivation to make this item. It’s a hard pass.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #122

It's hard to be mad at the fighter relic with all those boosted stats but it doesn't feel right to me. The legendary is just getting weird. Here's what I came up with that maybe doesn't fix everything but gets closer to something special:

Relic:
+6 Strength
+2 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
Critical on 19-20
Melee Shield AC adds to Reflex Saves

Legendary:
Grants all AoNM powers
Critical on 18-20
If melee weapon is a critical hit and highest damage on token faces damage dot, deal same damage to same or one other target (this could be worded much better)

This way it keeps fighters doing what fighters do best, slide pucks, and not have to worry about anything else. It also rewards fighters for sliding well.
Last edit: by Timmy Rink.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #123

Adam Guay wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

1. Can a Wizard equip both UR Jinn's Magebook Charm, and also one or the other of Relic Mage Medallion or Slithigarrette's Arch-Mage Medallion?

2. If they do so, do they gain the effect of Jinn's Magebook twice in a stackable way, e.g. 10 slots for scroll tokens?


My guess would be if you gain the effect you can't slot the token too.


That's my guess as well.

Several people have guessed otherwise, so I'm asking for a ruling :).
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #124

Harlax wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: Ok, settled down a bit, now have thoughts on others:

Cleric relic and legendary: seems a little odd to completely lose the abilities from the UR, and be designed in a way that many clerics will still want to equip it, even alongside the legendary. Not sure that it is bad, just feels odd.

Fighter legendary: fight after death...uh, isn't that barbarian? Also, not a great ability.


My suggestion for the Fighters: Blaze Of Glory, 1 melee attack after death, auto hit, auto crit, max damage. It’s virtually never going to happen, but when it does.... Especially if it also triggers whirlwind.


That might lead to some fun lines of play where you TRY to make that happen.

Especially for DF with Taunt.

And then your paladin can grief you with Sacrifice instead :ohmy:
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #125

Timmy Rink wrote: It's hard to be mad at the fighter relic with all those boosted stats but it doesn't feel right to me. The legendary is just getting weird. Here's what I came up with that maybe doesn't fix everything but gets closer to something special:

Relic:
+6 Strength
+2 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
Critical on 19-20
Melee Shield AC adds to Reflex Saves

Legendary:
Grants all AoNM powers
Critical on 18-20
If melee weapon is a critical hit and highest damage on token faces damage dot, deal double damage on same or one other target (this could be worded much better)

This way it keeps fighters doing what fighters do best, slide pucks, and not have to worry about anything else.


That’s fairly close to iterations in early discussions. The expanded crit was a casualty before it ever hit the General forums. STR started at +8 and was lowered to 7.

The +3 to Dex is essential to users of Thors and we will fight (pun intended) hard for that. With the abilities as they are we will fight (pun!) for the stats.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #126

Harlax wrote:

Timmy Rink wrote: It's hard to be mad at the fighter relic with all those boosted stats but it doesn't feel right to me. The legendary is just getting weird. Here's what I came up with that maybe doesn't fix everything but gets closer to something special:

Relic:
+6 Strength
+2 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
Critical on 19-20
Melee Shield AC adds to Reflex Saves

Legendary:
Grants all AoNM powers
Critical on 18-20
If melee weapon is a critical hit and highest damage on token faces damage dot, deal double damage on same or one other target (this could be worded much better)

This way it keeps fighters doing what fighters do best, slide pucks, and not have to worry about anything else.


That’s fairly close to iterations in early discussions. The expanded crit was a casualty before it ever hit the General forums. STR started at +8 and was lowered to 7.


And DEX and CON started at zero so... win some lose some.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #127

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: Ok, settled down a bit, now have thoughts on others:

Cleric relic and legendary: seems a little odd to completely lose the abilities from the UR, and be designed in a way that many clerics will still want to equip it, even alongside the legendary. Not sure that it is bad, just feels odd.

Fighter legendary: fight after death...uh, isn't that barbarian? Also, not a great ability.


My suggestion for the Fighters: Blaze Of Glory, 1 melee attack after death, auto hit, auto crit, max damage. It’s virtually never going to happen, but when it does.... Especially if it also triggers whirlwind.


That might lead to some fun lines of play where you TRY to make that happen.

Especially for DF with Taunt.

And then your paladin can grief you with Sacrifice instead :ohmy:


DF: I’m removing all my armor
DM: What?
DF: TAUNT
DM: Ok?
DF: I’M GOING DOOOWN, IN A BLAAZE OF GLORY... (imagine Jon Bon Jovi singing this. Or maybe Billy Connoly)
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #128

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Timmy Rink wrote: It's hard to be mad at the fighter relic with all those boosted stats but it doesn't feel right to me. The legendary is just getting weird. Here's what I came up with that maybe doesn't fix everything but gets closer to something special:

Relic:
+6 Strength
+2 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
Critical on 19-20
Melee Shield AC adds to Reflex Saves

Legendary:
Grants all AoNM powers
Critical on 18-20
If melee weapon is a critical hit and highest damage on token faces damage dot, deal double damage on same or one other target (this could be worded much better)

This way it keeps fighters doing what fighters do best, slide pucks, and not have to worry about anything else.


That’s fairly close to iterations in early discussions. The expanded crit was a casualty before it ever hit the General forums. STR started at +8 and was lowered to 7.


And DEX and CON started at zero so... win some lose some.


Oh I’m fine with almost all of the changes, my point is we’ve already been over that ground.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #129

As someone who loves doing the Skill Tests, I appreciate the idea of this pass on the Wizard tokens. But there are so many spells that don’t use the Skill Test and this doesn’t let me swap to them (and the relic doesn’t even give me more uses of the skill test spells). I also get that major frustration of the Skill Tests taking up time. I have definitely had DMs refuse to give me a Skill Test and say “you passed” when they saw our party was in a time crunch but I cast a spell and was standing by the Planar Board. I think they’ll be less inclined to do that now and equipping this Relic/Legendary will turn into “and you make your party fail a combat”, which is a very negative play experience. Please reconsider forcing negative play experiences on high value tokens.

The relic feels like such a minor upgrade to the UR and switches it to a much more restrictive slot in the process. It really doesn’t feel worth it. I think it really needs the extra spell boxes added back in or an ability to swap spells for same level or lower, to give greater access to and interaction with that Skill Test bonus. This token just feels so weak for the power level it should be at, especially in comparison to other Class Relics. Keeping in mind too the alternative option is MoMM+Jinn’s (2 URs and 1 extra charm slot) instead of this large token investment, the difference is this relic nets 4 damage, saves a consumable, and costs the party time. That doesn’t seem like the upgrade I would expect in a Class Relic. (And I am coming from the perspective of not liking MoMM as it is)

The Class Legendary is +3 total spells as free actions which is nice but not huge, Jinn’s which is nice to save a charm slot, and again an effect that says “wizard takes up more combat time than other classes” which is a nice damage boost but might make some parties mad. I would consider making this more than the last pass in public, I would never choose this over the L&L passes with Familiars removed (removed or possibly replaced with just +X Focus, or slide an empty puck if sliding was really necessary, or something small). I would certainly never just choose the Wizard Relic and be happy I had that.
I play Wizard.
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #130

Dave wrote: I'm still generally in favor of this revised relic/legendary, but as I continue to look at it, unless all spells gain a ST, there are no 2nd or 3rd level spells that benefit from this. And unless you equip MEC, you can't reap the maximum benefits. It seems like maybe the enhanced ST damage should be considered bonus damage (not base) and apply to all spells cast. That lowers the overall damage a bit, but would generally equalize the gain across all players and spells.


Absolutely disagree with changing the core rules of the game to retroactively nerf a token in order to not make a legendary token as powerful. That's a terrible decision
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #131

Timmy Rink wrote: It's hard to be mad at the fighter relic with all those boosted stats but it doesn't feel right to me. The legendary is just getting weird. Here's what I came up with that maybe doesn't fix everything but gets closer to something special:

Relic:
+6 Strength
+2 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
Critical on 19-20
Melee Shield AC adds to Reflex Saves

Legendary:
Grants all AoNM powers
Critical on 18-20
If melee weapon is a critical hit and highest damage on token faces damage dot, deal same damage to same or one other target (this could be worded much better)

This way it keeps fighters doing what fighters do best, slide pucks, and not have to worry about anything else. It also rewards fighters for sliding well.


I can get behind this but I wouldn't mind the legendary having the higher stats as an extra incentive to build it.
As for the whirlwind effect, it can be on every slide, its not going to come up very often.
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
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2021 Transmuted Feedback Part Two 1 year 1 month ago #132

For Fighter, I love everyone saying “Whirlwind doesn’t add a lot of damage because there aren’t many fights with multiple targets.” Welcome to being a Wizard, we are constantly told our potential damage is so high because of our multi-target spells. Yes, on paper the potential “could be huge”, in practice it never works out and you feel like everyone is over-calculating your contribution. Maybe now you’ll have more sympathy for Wizards saying Fireball doesn’t actually mean they are dealing tons of damage?

I am not a huge fan of the Fighters fighting after death. It feels like it steps on Barbarians and doesn’t fit the class. It feels like it will come up too infrequently.

I am no Fighter, but I would expect them to enjoy wider crit ranges, higher crit multipliers, or more slide fixing? Maybe +reslides, +1 to crit range, +1 to crit multiplier, or gain a form of “Impale” (leave puck on table in same spot facing same direction and deal that much damage next round if you still hit, maybe only once per room).
I play Wizard.
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