TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback

Dave wrote: Still checking on these posts periodically. Once a group willing to discuss has some best options, I'm more than willing to help settle on a best choice for the group. Of course, you realize that Jeff may still want to go in another direction. After continued consideration.

The UR is only valuable so I can tranmute to the relic. Would never equip it.
The relic is worth the neck slot only because it gives me 4 FA spells. I do NOT think this overpowered and anything less makes the relic borderline in terms of use.
The legendary holds very little value at this point. I know there are those that think MEC is overpowered. We've been down that path and completely disagree, but I just don't think it's worth adding to the legendary. I'm more than happy to still find one charm slot for that ability. MMM is completely useless to me unless the wand become non-consumable. Even then I have little interest.

The last iteration of the legendary made me think twice about possibly giving up the cabal set. As things stand, the cabal set is almost equal to the relic and better than the legendary. Maybe add all max cabal effects as part of the legendary (1 FA spell per room, +3 spell damage, etc.) Then I also get those slots back to play with. Legendary needs to live up to its name. I would not transmute for it in its current version.

As pointed out in other threads, the legendary upgrade has in the past been an upgrade of 1 or 2 ac in some cases, or +2 saves. Just adding mmm is a bigger upgrade than almost all previous relic -> legendary upgrades

Endgame wrote:

Dave wrote: Still checking on these posts periodically. Once a group willing to discuss has some best options, I'm more than willing to help settle on a best choice for the group. Of course, you realize that Jeff may still want to go in another direction. After continued consideration.

The UR is only valuable so I can tranmute to the relic. Would never equip it.
The relic is worth the neck slot only because it gives me 4 FA spells. I do NOT think this overpowered and anything less makes the relic borderline in terms of use.
The legendary holds very little value at this point. I know there are those that think MEC is overpowered. We've been down that path and completely disagree, but I just don't think it's worth adding to the legendary. I'm more than happy to still find one charm slot for that ability. MMM is completely useless to me unless the wand become non-consumable. Even then I have little interest.

The last iteration of the legendary made me think twice about possibly giving up the cabal set. As things stand, the cabal set is almost equal to the relic and better than the legendary. Maybe add all max cabal effects as part of the legendary (1 FA spell per room, +3 spell damage, etc.) Then I also get those slots back to play with. Legendary needs to live up to its name. I would not transmute for it in its current version.

As pointed out in other threads, the legendary upgrade has in the past been an upgrade of 1 or 2 ac in some cases, or +2 saves. Just adding mmm is a bigger upgrade than almost all previous relic -> legendary upgrades

That as may be, but it's not enough to get me (and at least Dave, it seems) to make the jump to Legendary. Adding MMM is only an upgrade if you'll use it-in it's current iteration, I never would, especially not at the cost of 40K GP and a pile of mats.

NightGod wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Dave wrote: Still checking on these posts periodically. Once a group willing to discuss has some best options, I'm more than willing to help settle on a best choice for the group. Of course, you realize that Jeff may still want to go in another direction. After continued consideration.

The UR is only valuable so I can tranmute to the relic. Would never equip it.
The relic is worth the neck slot only because it gives me 4 FA spells. I do NOT think this overpowered and anything less makes the relic borderline in terms of use.
The legendary holds very little value at this point. I know there are those that think MEC is overpowered. We've been down that path and completely disagree, but I just don't think it's worth adding to the legendary. I'm more than happy to still find one charm slot for that ability. MMM is completely useless to me unless the wand become non-consumable. Even then I have little interest.

The last iteration of the legendary made me think twice about possibly giving up the cabal set. As things stand, the cabal set is almost equal to the relic and better than the legendary. Maybe add all max cabal effects as part of the legendary (1 FA spell per room, +3 spell damage, etc.) Then I also get those slots back to play with. Legendary needs to live up to its name. I would not transmute for it in its current version.

As pointed out in other threads, the legendary upgrade has in the past been an upgrade of 1 or 2 ac in some cases, or +2 saves. Just adding mmm is a bigger upgrade than almost all previous relic -> legendary upgrades

That as may be, but it's not enough to get me (and at least Dave, it seems) to make the jump to Legendary. Adding MMM is only an upgrade if you'll use it-in it's current iteration, I never would, especially not at the cost of 40K GP and a pile of mats.

Random potential question for all the threads. Should the neck legendaries be good enough to get people to upgrade who normally wouldn’t anything to legendary? It’s late in the cycle to ask that, but maybe the first two rounds, except Druid, over shot?

Edit:
Thinking it over, let the class legendaries be awesome. If it’s the only legendary most people make, that is OK.

So familiars are on hold for now. No problem - gives time to develop this new class of tokens (along with totems and spirits).

It's too bad the spellbook has become a neck slot item. I c=guess I understand that being the case for the legendary, since most class legendaries seem to be in that slot.

So the legendary gives you five new first level spell options based on scrolls, one additional spell per level that can be cast as a free action, the MMM power (which would have been in that slot anyway) which is helpful especially to human wizards who get a wand bonus, and an open charm slot by including MEC as a power (so you are losing two charm slots if you give up the charm necklace).

I think this is pretty good. Not sure I would invest the resources required for it, though.

Can I assume the legendary giving the MEC power would also require the INT of 20 to be able to equip it?

bpsymington wrote: Can I assume the legendary giving the MEC power would also require the INT of 20 to be able to equip it?

As written, I wouldn't think so. It says it "gives the power of" the MEC, not that it contains a MEC or is the same as a MEC.

MMM is not a benefit. It depends on a free action with 4 free actions taken by the spells that only leaves 4-5 combat rounds per dungeon. The best wand does 8 points, human Wizards get plus 2 and now if I equip another Ioun Stone I get another plus 2 for an extra 12 points so max damage I can do if I haven’t already spent my big spell is 75 plus the 12 from the wand for a total of 87. Seems like a big number unless you see your other group mates doing over 200 on a regular basis.
Now if I can add my spell damage bonus it might be better.

Calling All Wizard - Helps us Get Aligned

The idea of the survey below is to find if we can all agree on some proposal or other as the best of the bunch.

I did my best to represent all the proposals here in this thread: there are 10 (including the current proposal from TPTB).

Please take this survey which force ranks all 10 options as your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ... 10th favorite choice.

I hope that a miracle occurs and we can find 1-2 items that we all agree are the best of the bunch, or at least eliminate some options if we all agree that idea A is better than idea B.

Survey Advice! Read the power descriptions carefully:

All powers include the current Relic.

Note that Item 2: "Prior Proposal Minus Familiar" is strictly worse than option #3 in terms of effect- but might be more desirable if you believe item #2 could get made by TPTB, but item #3 would not - for example.

Also note that items 4-6 grant you an additional spell at each level, but these additional spells are not inherently castable as a free action. Those proposals also include a cast any spell as a free action 2/room.


I'm sorry the formatting is so totally awful - I did my best.


You'll need to scroll the form and provide a single answer for each of the 10 options as your 1st though 10th choice.

Thanks for being willing to engage with this! Come on - we're Wizards - if anyone is going to solve this with a survey and a spreadsheet - it's us!

Survey at:

forms.gle/wioPUYCQUKyCrgKJ7

Survey Closes at Midnight Eastern Time Tomorrow, Tuesday August 25th, and I'll report the results here (you can see the results so far after you take your survey though).

For better or worse, MEC is class defining for wizards. It makes sense to see it on the Legendary.

OrionW wrote: For better or worse, MEC is class defining for wizards. It makes sense to see it on the Legendary.

I sort of disagree, because unless it gets reprinted this year or next, it's kind of entering "pay to win" territory where to have the "class defining" token you need to spend several hundred for the UR or more than that for the legendary.

Widseth's Mystical Lute was seeing asking prices of around $400 when it was reprinted - which was a good thing, as it gave many Bards access to what many see as the Bard class defining feature: bardsong + attack at the same time.

Also - over time MeCs luster has dimmed. When it was printed, added 3-20 points of damage was very, very powerful. Nowadays BiS builds are adding 30+ on each spell, the impact of MeC has dwindled to boosting damage output by a much smaller percentage. Also - it was nerfed (at least in player understanding) to not double the effectiveness of multi-target spells when there are multiple targets.

I do like the choices it gives in game - I think that's fun - but the difference between a top end Wizard build with and Without MeC is slowly vanishing.

Also - it was nerfed (at least in player understanding) to not double the effectiveness of multi-target spells when there are multiple targets.

This could be one of the powers of the Legendary if MEC is included: MEC can be used on multi-target spells. Wizards thematically are the right class to damage multiple targets.

Make Fireball/Lightning Storm great again!

Also worth pointing out that MEC will scale if we get 6th level cards.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Calling All Wizard - Helps us Get Aligned

The idea of the survey below is to find if we can all agree on some proposal or other as the best of the bunch.

I did my best to represent all the proposals here in this thread: there are 10 (including the current proposal from TPTB).

Please take this survey which force ranks all 10 options as your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ... 10th favorite choice.

I hope that a miracle occurs and we can find 1-2 items that we all agree are the best of the bunch, or at least eliminate some options if we all agree that idea A is better than idea B.

Survey Advice! Read the power descriptions carefully:

All powers include the current Relic.

Note that Item 2: "Prior Proposal Minus Familiar" is strictly worse than option #3 in terms of effect- but might be more desirable if you believe item #2 could get made by TPTB, but item #3 would not - for example.

Also note that items 4-6 grant you an additional spell at each level, but these additional spells are not inherently castable as a free action. Those proposals also include a cast any spell as a free action 2/room.


I'm sorry the formatting is so totally awful - I did my best.


You'll need to scroll the form and provide a single answer for each of the 10 options as your 1st though 10th choice.

Thanks for being willing to engage with this! Come on - we're Wizards - if anyone is going to solve this with a survey and a spreadsheet - it's us!

Survey at:

forms.gle/wioPUYCQUKyCrgKJ7

Survey Closes at Midnight Eastern Time Tomorrow, Tuesday August 25th, and I'll report the results here (you can see the results so far after you take your survey though).

no options for raw +x spell damage?