TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I hope we can move the UR back to slotless and simply have the Relic/Legendary state they count as the UR so they can't be stacked if allowing extra scrolls is really an issue.

I'm not sure that having 5 C/U scrolls and 5 C/U/R scrolls slotted causes any form of power issue

I looked at C/UC scrolls, there is one UC scroll from last year that does 10 pts of damage. All other (2 exceptions follow) max at 6 points of damage and very few have that much damage.
The two exceptions are both from 2008 so I doubt there are many still in circulation. Both require a slide. One does 12 points of damage and the other does 9.
As I said, I doubt there are many of these running around outside of token collectors like Trent.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spell box of your choice at all spell levels. Cast a spell as a free action 1/room

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels and cast a spell as a free action 2/room

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

I'll start with the assumption that you intend for these to not stack with each other since that would be doable with these being slotless. Even with that this approach seems to have nearly all of the benefits of the second phase, with additional perks and moved it to slotless. I'd expect a harsh swing in the opposite direction if it was made slotless.

Given those critiques, if the fourth phase of design had room for iteration I wouldn't be opposed to this idea. If there will not be a fifth pass I would strongly vote against this approach.

James Bennett wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spell box of your choice at all spell levels. Cast a spell as a free action 1/room

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels and cast a spell as a free action 2/room

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

I'll start with the assumption that you intend for these to not stack with each other since that would be doable with these being slotless. Even with that this approach seems to have nearly all of the benefits of the second phase, with additional perks and moved it to slotless. I'd expect a harsh swing in the opposite direction if it was made slotless.

Given those critiques, if the fourth phase of design had room for iteration I wouldn't be opposed to this idea. If there will not be a fifth pass I would strongly vote against this approach.

Yes, they would absolutely not be stackable.

I thought the limitation of 1/room free action was a better spot than 4/game free action spells with the current necklace. Same with 2/room vs 8/game as that would be dependant on the number of combat rooms in a run. Which current sit between 3 and 4 on average.

It would also prevent 3 of those 4 free spells being burned in one combat to overstack damage.

That said I truly hope we have at least two more passes on design.

Clerics and Wizards currently do not like our UR or our Legendary token versions. Hopefully there's a change in the next pass and some iterations can be made from there. Otherwise I worry for the happiness of the two classes

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spell box of your choice at all spell levels. Cast a spell as a free action 1/room

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels and cast a spell as a free action 2/room

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

I'd still fight you so I can play Wizard. Still way too much for a slotless item.

8 extra spell slots
ability to cast 2/room as FA

I'll combine with Cabal Set to cast 3/room as FA and toss on RoSS just in case I need a 4th in some room.


Or to take a different route... let's say we made this item in 2022 after we're done with the class-specific transmutes, and allow any caster to use it (only accessing the appropriate scrolls), would you be for it then?

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spell box of your choice at all spell levels. Cast a spell as a free action 1/room

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels and cast a spell as a free action 2/room

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

I'd still fight you so I can play Wizard. Still way too much for a slotless item.

8 extra spell slots
ability to cast 2/room as FA

I'll combine with Cabal Set to cast 3/room as FA and toss on RoSS just in case I need a 4th in some room.


Or to take a different route... let's say we made this item in 2022 after we're done with the class-specific transmutes, and allow any caster to use it (only accessing the appropriate scrolls), would you be for it then?

If it were designed in 2022 as accessible to all casters I'd be fine with it.

As it stands right now the Cleric version gets more free action spells so they'd only be gaining scroll flexibility.

It'd make me worry a bit about the holy fire scroll that's in design right now.


That being said I do not want to roll back to the drawing board for the Wizard design this year. That direction lies generic, unfulfilling tokens

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

James Bennett wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spell box of your choice at all spell levels. Cast a spell as a free action 1/room

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels and cast a spell as a free action 2/room

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

I'll start with the assumption that you intend for these to not stack with each other since that would be doable with these being slotless. Even with that this approach seems to have nearly all of the benefits of the second phase, with additional perks and moved it to slotless. I'd expect a harsh swing in the opposite direction if it was made slotless.

Given those critiques, if the fourth phase of design had room for iteration I wouldn't be opposed to this idea. If there will not be a fifth pass I would strongly vote against this approach.

Yes, they would absolutely not be stackable.

I thought the limitation of 1/room free action was a better spot than 4/game free action spells with the current necklace. Same with 2/room vs 8/game as that would be dependant on the number of combat rooms in a run. Which current sit between 3 and 4 on average.

It would also prevent 3 of those 4 free spells being burned in one combat to overstack damage.

I get that and perhaps that would be a more general purpose way to correct the legendary in the neck slot. If we made this slotless I'd assume this would need to significantly drop the power to say "Cast a spell using a free action as a scroll 2/room". I recognize there may be other options, but I view needing to iterate on a slotless design a few times to find something that would not be very unbalanced.

To wizards:

I believe our best shot at getting something in particular is to coalesce around a single design concept and endorse it. We have - perhaps - a day or two to do so.

I believe long shot ideas like moving the item out of the neck slot despite it being announced 2 years ago it will be in the neck slot are unlikely to generate a change in that dimension - I think if we can coalesce around something quite similar to one of the design iterations it’s most likely to go our way.

Sometime this evening, I’ll take the proposals on this thread and put them in a survey - and see if we can discover a stable solution that we’d all prefer to what the current iteration is. If we can, and if it’s close enough to what TPTB think is reasonable - we can at least speak with one voice.

If we can’t manage to do that - then I believe our ability to influence the outcome will be quite diminished.

Matthew Hayward wrote: To wizards:

I believe our best shot at getting something in particular is to coalesce around a single design concept and endorse it. We have - perhaps - a day or two to do so.

I believe long shot ideas like moving the item out of the neck slot despite it being announced 2 years ago it will be in the neck slot are unlikely to generate a change in that dimension - I think if we can coalesce around something quite similar to one of the design iterations it’s most likely to go our way.

Sometime this evening, I’ll take the proposals on this thread and put them in a survey - and see if we can discover a stable solution that we’d all prefer to what the current iteration is. If we can, and if it’s close enough to what TPTB think is reasonable - we can at least speak with one voice.

If we can’t manage to do that - then I believe our ability to influence the outcome will be quite diminished.

Agreed.

I would still prefer to see the UR put back as slotless since it doesn't provide the level of power you'd expect at Ur for a neck. I think stacking could be eliminated by stating the Relic and Legendary count as the UR or can not be equipped with it.

personally I like the Relic as designed in the last pass with +1 to each spell level and those +1 boxes can be cast as a free action.

On the Legendary I did like the second set of spell boxes as free action and would be happy with another effect

- Spell slides crit 19-20
- Double all spell damage for 1 round 2/game
- +5 Spell Damage

ONE of those 3 effects, not all 3.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: To wizards:

I believe our best shot at getting something in particular is to coalesce around a single design concept and endorse it. We have - perhaps - a day or two to do so.

I believe long shot ideas like moving the item out of the neck slot despite it being announced 2 years ago it will be in the neck slot are unlikely to generate a change in that dimension - I think if we can coalesce around something quite similar to one of the design iterations it’s most likely to go our way.

Sometime this evening, I’ll take the proposals on this thread and put them in a survey - and see if we can discover a stable solution that we’d all prefer to what the current iteration is. If we can, and if it’s close enough to what TPTB think is reasonable - we can at least speak with one voice.

If we can’t manage to do that - then I believe our ability to influence the outcome will be quite diminished.

Agreed.

I would still prefer to see the UR put back as slotless since it doesn't provide the level of power you'd expect at Ur for a neck. I think stacking could be eliminated by stating the Relic and Legendary count as the UR or can not be equipped with it.

personally I like the Relic as designed in the last pass with +1 to each spell level and those +1 boxes can be cast as a free action.

On the Legendary I did like the second set of spell boxes as free action and would be happy with another effect

- Spell slides crit 19-20
- Double all spell damage for 1 round 2/game
- +5 Spell Damage

ONE of those 3 effects, not all 3.

Agree with this setup and would prefer +5 Spell Damage as the additional ability.

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: To wizards:

I believe our best shot at getting something in particular is to coalesce around a single design concept and endorse it. We have - perhaps - a day or two to do so.

I believe long shot ideas like moving the item out of the neck slot despite it being announced 2 years ago it will be in the neck slot are unlikely to generate a change in that dimension - I think if we can coalesce around something quite similar to one of the design iterations it’s most likely to go our way.

Sometime this evening, I’ll take the proposals on this thread and put them in a survey - and see if we can discover a stable solution that we’d all prefer to what the current iteration is. If we can, and if it’s close enough to what TPTB think is reasonable - we can at least speak with one voice.

If we can’t manage to do that - then I believe our ability to influence the outcome will be quite diminished.

Agreed.

I would still prefer to see the UR put back as slotless since it doesn't provide the level of power you'd expect at Ur for a neck. I think stacking could be eliminated by stating the Relic and Legendary count as the UR or can not be equipped with it.

personally I like the Relic as designed in the last pass with +1 to each spell level and those +1 boxes can be cast as a free action.

On the Legendary I did like the second set of spell boxes as free action and would be happy with another effect

- Spell slides crit 19-20
- Double all spell damage for 1 round 2/game
- +5 Spell Damage

ONE of those 3 effects, not all 3.

Agree with this setup and would prefer +5 Spell Damage as the additional ability.

I would be fine with any of the three listed, preference going towards the +5 Spell Damage or the double ALL spell damage for 1 turn 2/game.

Hopefully we can get others to chime in on the suggestions here and see if Wizards are generally in agreement with this setup.

Agree.