TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback

Dave wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Justice wrote:

macxdmg wrote: Can a person wear a MEC and the legendary and cut twice a round?

Hahaha I can imagine Dave now!

So that’s why clerics are getting all the FA heals

Yes, it is all just to keep Dave alive

See, I would be just fine if the legendary doubled the MEC damage done to the wizard. In all seriousness, MEC forces wizards to adjust their build. Without MEC, you can go into a nightmare run with 30-40 hp and if you have a paladin guarding you and a decent cleric and/or druid you have a good chance of survival. If you use MEC, you really need to be in the 50-60 hp range at minimum. Unless, like me you are trying to die. Dying only works if someone in your party is willing to sacrifice actions to shove potions or mushrooms down your throat. I'm afraid one of these days I'll announce that I cut myself and died and the party will just shrug their shoulders and go "ok", and then move on.

To be fair, that was what I was planning to do next time I run with you and you have a deathwish. As long as potter isn't there to keep feeding you mushrooms.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

macxdmg wrote:
Can a person wear a MEC and the legendary and cut twice a round?

I assume not with the legendary - but I had the same question.

It definitely needs clarification. The wording on the Legendary is that it gives you the power of the MEC, not that it counts as having the MEC equipped.

Juion wrote: So, speaking as someone who literally just ran Nightmare for the first time at the first VTD event, I really like this item as a wizard. Moreso than the familiar version that has been mentioned elsewhere.

I understand that a lot of wizards who are going to be going for this have a Mad Evoker's Charm, but it's been out of print and I'd rather work to build this than find one.

I'm never gonna be the kind of person who will calculate DPR and what's the best build. I'm a Timmy at heart, to use M:TG classifications. I like big flashy things. I love this item. I get to put scrolls in my spellbook, which is a huge wizard thing, traditionally. I get to cast from hitpoints and I get to cast a spell as a free action? That's awesome.

And I'm excited for familiars as their own thing and to see what they do then. If I really want to slide a puck as a wizard, polymorph is there for me.

As someone who hasn't even considered transmuting something this crazy before, this has gotten me excited and looking at cataloging all my tokens to send in for trade goods in prep.

I think a lot of people here know better about balance, but this is my little diatribe on it being exciting for me, as a player who's been playing for a couple of years and hasn't dived too crazily deep on the token aspect yet.

Lol - M:TG Johnny checking in here .

I hope we can move the UR back to slotless and simply have the Relic/Legendary state they count as the UR so they can't be stacked if allowing extra scrolls is really an issue.

I'm not sure that having 5 C/U scrolls and 5 C/U/R scrolls slotted causes any form of power issue

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

macxdmg wrote:
Can a person wear a MEC and the legendary and cut twice a round?

I assume not with the legendary - but I had the same question.

It definitely needs clarification. The wording on the Legendary is that it gives you the power of the MEC, not that it counts as having the MEC equipped.

I also assumed you couldn't double-dip on MEC, but if you can....well then....

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are some proposals for how to tune up the current legendary, why not give a plus 1 if any of these speak to you:

Proposal 1:

Drop MeC effect, keep MMM effect

Add both of:
Wand Master - You don't turn in wands
Wand Blaster - You may apply your spell bonus to wands, but you have to turn them in

Proposal 2:

Drop MeC and MMM effects.

Add:
+1 spell per level as a free action
Whimsical Fun* (see below)

Proposal 3:

Drop MMM effect.

Add:
You may cast a spell, read a scroll, or use a wand as a free action (X/game)
(Fixes up your hands slot in terms of setting down your weapon and picking it back up like MMM, tune the X/game to the number that feels right. I'm thinking 4-6.)

Proposal 4:

Drop MMM effect.

Add:
You may cast Level 0 (or Level 1? or Both?) Spells as a free action.

Whimsical Fun Ideas

Similar to Animal Friend, Rangers can read Druid Scrolls, +2 psychic use - some small bonus that is fun.

Here are some ideas:

Mistaken Identity - Target a willing party member with a spell that otherwise can only target the caster (1-2/game)

Psychic Blast - All enemies take 3x your Psychic Level Psychic damage (1/game)

Astral Journey - During combat become Incorporeal, cancel as an instantaneous action (1/game) (While incorporeal you can't be damaged except with Ghost Touched attacks or Force damage. Your non-force damage spells/attacks do no damage while you are incorporeal).

Isn't any form of "add spell damage modifier to all your free actions" problematic over the long run? It's essentially the issue we have with rangers and monks currently - they double up on damage modifiers.

8 free action spells out of 10 or 12 combat rounds is pretty close. The suggestion to add spell damage to all free-action wand activations seems OP.

I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spellbox of your choice at all spell levels cast as a free action (current and previous designs)

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels cast as a free action

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

(one of those 3 effects not all 3 of them)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spellbox of your choice at all spell levels cast as a free action (current and previous designs)

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels cast as a free action

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

(one of those 3 effects not all 3 of them)

I will start fighting you all to play Wizard all the time if that was made slotless.

I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spell box of your choice at all spell levels. Cast a spell as a free action 1/room

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels and cast a spell as a free action 2/room

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spellbox of your choice at all spell levels cast as a free action (current and previous designs)

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels cast as a free action

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

(one of those 3 effects not all 3 of them)

I will start fighting you all to play Wizard all the time if that was made slotless.

Updated it and lowered the power level a bit, what's your thought there?

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are some proposals for how to tune up the current legendary, why not give a plus 1 if any of these speak to you:

Proposal 1:

Drop MeC effect, keep MMM effect

Add both of:
Wand Master - You don't turn in wands
Wand Blaster - You may apply your spell bonus to wands, but you have to turn them in

Proposal 2:

Drop MeC and MMM effects.

Add:
+1 spell per level as a free action
Whimsical Fun* (see below)

Proposal 3:

Drop MMM effect.

Add:
You may cast a spell, read a scroll, or use a wand as a free action (X/game)
(Fixes up your hands slot in terms of setting down your weapon and picking it back up like MMM, tune the X/game to the number that feels right. I'm thinking 4-6.)

Proposal 4:

Drop MMM effect.

Add:
You may cast Level 0 (or Level 1? or Both?) Spells as a free action.

Whimsical Fun Ideas

Similar to Animal Friend, Rangers can read Druid Scrolls, +2 psychic use - some small bonus that is fun.

Here are some ideas:

Mistaken Identity - Target a willing party member with a spell that otherwise can only target the caster (1-2/game)

Psychic Blast - All enemies take 3x your Psychic Level Psychic damage (1/game)

Astral Journey - During combat become Incorporeal, cancel as an instantaneous action (1/game) (While incorporeal you can't be damaged except with Ghost Touched attacks or Force damage. Your non-force damage spells/attacks do no damage while you are incorporeal).

Of these I prefer #2 the most, but I think the whimsical effects suggested are still pretty strong. I think Jeff's creativity would bring up something cool here.

If I may, I have a couple of other proposals which iterate on the design seen in phase 2:

Proposal 5:

Relic change to "Gain 1st and 2nd level spell box (cast as a free action)" (basically a souped up version of the rare neck)

Legendary drop MeC and MMM effects.
Legendary add +1 spell per level as a free action, optional "Whimsical Fun*" as Matthew describes

Drops it from eight free actions to six which might help with balance.

Proposal 6:

Legendary drop MeC and MMM effects.
Legendary add +1 spell per level as a free action, may not utilize Mad Evoker's Charm, "Whimsical Fun*" as Matthew describes,

Thought here is to ensure extra damage is not stacked on top of the free action cast, but give Wizards the full flexibility we saw in phase two.

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I know there was a previous statement that only the Bard and Paladin class Legendaroes would be non neck slot items, but I am curious if allowing the Legendary Wizard token to stay a Spellbook would be a better direction design wise considering the Spellbook is more about flexibility than power.

What would the wizard Concensus be on this?

Ultra Rare - Jinn's Spellbook
slot in 5 C/U scrolls, they can be swapped for any first level spell and in all ways count as a first level spell being cast. Mark off a 1st level spell of your choice on the wizard card when casting any of the Spellbook scrolls (this is the original design of the UR token)

Relic - Jinn's Greater Spellbook
As Jinn's Spellbook but allows the use of Rare scrolls. Adds 1 spellbox of your choice at all spell levels cast as a free action (current and previous designs)

Legendary - Jinn's Master Spellbook
As Jinn's Greater Spellbook but adds one spell box of your choice at all spell levels cast as a free action

And one of the following effects
- Wands used in combat are not consumed
- Slide Spells can crit on a 19-20
- 2/game double all spell damage for one round

(one of those 3 effects not all 3 of them)

I will start fighting you all to play Wizard all the time if that was made slotless.

With the recent update to the cleric powers being proposed I may have to start fighting all to be the doomsday cleric.